Re: [xmca] Question

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Could it have to do with the idea of acquiring the ability to control
oneself from the outside, Steve?
mike

2010/7/31 Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>

> Monica, what suggests to you that will has an early-age-based entanglement
> factor that is different from that of other functions?
>
> On motives, we get some of Vygotsky's thoughts also in that chapter on will
> - such as "in voluntary selection [decision-making], it is not stimuli, but
> motives that are in conflict ..."  V4 p 215.
>
> - Steve
>
>
> On Jul 31, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Monica Hansen wrote:
>
>  Your last question, Steve is what I have been playing with for a while and
>> one of the reasons I asked the question about the differentiation of the
>> terms motivation and volition. Is "will" a high mental process? I have
>>  been
>> thinking about the possibility of part of "will" as being a disposition of
>> an intermediate process, maybe a neurobiological process, a somatic state
>> (Damasio) that cannot be disentangled from our conscious subjective
>> experience of situations associated with it in early development. I am
>> interested to see what other ideas and connections come from this
>> discussion.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Steve Gabosch
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 1:29 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
>>
>> Elina, you ask many intriguing and very good questions!  The symposium
>> you are developing will be very interesting.  A side point in your
>> discussion here on the nature of self-consciousness or reflection
>> struck me - you suggest that will may not be a higher psychological
>> function.  I happen to have some Vygotsky quotes handy to think about
>> that with.
>>
>> In studying Vol 4 The History of the Development of the Higher Mental
>> Functions - a difficult but rewarding book - I have been struck by how
>> much emphasis Vygotsky puts on will, self-mastery, self-control as an
>> essential aspect of the development of all the higher mental functions.
>>
>> Some of this is new to me and quite fascinating.  So here is a quick
>> synopsis of what I am getting from this so far.    See what you think.
>>
>> According the Vygotsky, the higher mental functions themselves (e.g.
>> attention, perception, memory, imitation, thinking, speech, counting,
>> personality, world view) are the psychological aspect of cultural
>> behavior. The development of the higher mental functions is an
>> essential aspect of cultural behavior, they are part and parcel of
>> cultural behavior.  They are all, without exception, derived from
>> social processes - encountered first externally as a relationship with
>> another person, and then internalized.  They are by no means fixed,
>> but develop historically, based on the society, social relations,
>> forms of culture, etc.
>>
>> The concept of "the mastery of behavior through internal processes" is
>> a core theme for Vygotsky's theory of the higher mental functions.
>> This is the essence of will.  He emphasizes that human freedom and
>> freedom of the will can be found in the recognition of necessity (per
>> Hegel, Engels, etc.), and that "Human freedom consists specifically of
>> man's ability to think."   Vol 4 p 209.  But humans can only control
>> their behavior by controlling their stimuli and situations.  So he
>> says ": the great uniqueness of the will consists of man having no
>> power over his own behavior other than the power that things have over
>> his behavior. But man subjects to himself the power of things over
>> behavior, makes them serve his own purposes and controls that power as
>> he wants. He changes the environment with his external activity and in
>> this way affects his own behavior, subjecting it to his own
>> authority." p 212
>>
>> One way to describe his concept of will might be to say that will is
>> not a direct two-step process of willing-getting, but a mediated three
>> step process of willing-creating-getting.  "... will is never a
>> direct, unmediated process." p217 "We ... [can] not bring forth any
>> process of behavior and control it other that by creating an
>> appropriate stimulus." p 210
>>
>> So with those ideas in mind, I am curious what the concept of the
>> higher mental functions might look like if we view will as being
>> something other than a higher mental process.  Thoughts?
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Elina said:
>> Part of this conversation was discussion of the nature of higher
>> psychological functions. I am still puzzled with what Vygotsky meant by
>> function ( Seth Chaiklin and I posed this question in 2002 and as we
>> discussed recently and are still looking for an answer...:-), but
>> Gennadi
>> and I believe that reflection and will are not higher psychological
>> functions. We are in the process of developing a proposal for the ISCAR
>> symposium on these issues.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 30, 2010, at 11:11 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel wrote:
>>
>>  Dear Achilles,
>>> Thank you very much for the contribution. There can't be an
>>> interruption as
>>> it is a polylogical space I suppose.If we connect the Vygotskian
>>> description
>>> of development of self/ "ya" in the ontogenesis, then it points to the
>>> important connections between reflexivity and self consciousness.
>>> - Crisis of seven years. Generalization of "perezivaniya" or as
>>> Vygotsky
>>> calls it logic of feelings. The dual position of the child in play (
>>> Imaginary situation:" I am a soldier in pain as I was wounded " and
>>> Real
>>> situation: My Mom is calling me for dinner and I am hungry) allows
>>> the child
>>> to reflect on one of this "perezivanij' as the other, as object of
>>> reflection. In the process of the crisis of seven years as it is
>>> noted in
>>> your last quote, the child because of the ability to distinguish
>>> external
>>> and internal, evaluate her own success and failure develops self-
>>> esteem and
>>> self -evaluation. It seems to me that reflection as a psychological
>>> tool of
>>> experiencing imaginary and real position in play as well as the
>>> psychological tool that helps the child to look at herself as the
>>> other is
>>> the condition for the development of the initial forms of self-
>>> evaluation
>>> and self esteem through the crises of seven years.
>>>
>>> Interestingly enough in the research of Alexander Dusavitskii it was
>>> argued
>>> that when elementary school students in Davydov-El'konin classrooms
>>> were
>>> asked to evaluate themselves, they would always evaluate their work
>>> lower
>>> that it was, because the self-evaluation that emerged through the
>>> crisis of
>>> seven years was not developed in the context of learning activity.
>>> How to
>>> evaluate my own learning was "terra incognita" for them.
>>>
>>> *But the question is what is the role of "perezivaniye' in the
>>> development
>>> of self-consciousness? * "Perezhivaniye" captures the unity of
>>> affect and
>>> intellect and this unity seems very important for the development of
>>> self-consciousness.
>>>
>>> These are my thoughts so far...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2010/7/30 Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Mike and Elina,
>>>> This will not so deep as all you are talking about, but when I was
>>>> reading
>>>> here I remember of your discussion, I made a little connection,
>>>> because an
>>>> "auto-consciousness" influx for "auto-concept" (see the text about
>>>> the
>>>> Crisis of Seven Years), and the first consciousness of child own
>>>> perezhivaniia, etc... Then this influx for me to the problem of the
>>>> concept
>>>> of our own "Ya" ... Please if this could seems much extemporaneous,
>>>> by my
>>>> part, delete this message... But, let me try:
>>>> I - From Slovar' L.S. Vigoskogo (ed. A.A. Leont'ev, 2007):
>>>> Я - Понятие о <<Я>> развивается у
>>>> ребенка из понятия о других. (31.1, 163) Тот факт, что с дошкольного
>>>> возраста человек начинает по-мнить
>>>> последовательность событий, -- это то, что
>>>> старые психологи называли единством и тождеством <<Я>>. (5.2, 130)
>>>> <...> ребенок учит-ся в игре своему <<Я>>: создавая фиктивные точки
>>>> идентификации -- центры <<Я>>: irde социальная
>>>> природа <<Я>>. Ср. Rollenspiel (ролевая игра). <...> ребенок имеет
>>>> уже <<Я>>, но не осознает его, имеет внутренние процессы, но не
>>>> сознает их --
>>>> в игре prise de conscience о себе и своем сознании <...>
>>>> Обозначение <<Я>> в
>>>> игре, осознание мысли, <<я хочу>> -- в игре <."> Парадокс <<Я>>: в
>>>> игре то
>>>> радует, что я хочу,
>>>> эгоцентри-ческая деятельность; но здесь же ограничение изнутри от
>>>> своего
>>>> мо-ментального
>>>> <<Я>>. (23.1, 291)
>>>>
>>>> См. Возраст, Игра, Понятие
>>>> See: "prise de conscience о себе"
>>>>
>>>> The actual references:
>>>> * 33.1: Эйдетика // Хрестоматия по ощущению и восприятию. М., 1975.
>>>> С.
>>>> 275-281 (1930)
>>>> * 5.2: Обучение и развитие в дошкольном
>>>> возрасте // Выготский. М.,1.С. 123-134
>>>> (1933)
>>>> * 23.1: Из записок-конспекта Л.С.
>>>> Выготского к лекциям по психоло-гии детей дошкольного возраста //
>>>> Эльконин
>>>> Д.Б. Психология игры. М., 1978. С. 289-294 (1933)
>>>> ************************
>>>>
>>>> II - From "Seven Years Crisis" (Tom IV):
>>>> "В 7-летнем возрасте мы имеем дело с началом возникновения такой
>>>> структуры
>>>> переживаний, когда ребенок начинает понимать, что значит <<я
>>>> радуюсь>>, <<я
>>>> огорчен>>, <<я сердит>>, <<я добрый>>, <<я злой>>, т. е. у него
>>>> возникает
>>>> осмысленная ориентировка в собственных переживаниях. Точно так, как
>>>> ребенок
>>>> 3 лет открывает свое отношение с другими людьми, так семилетка
>>>> открывает сам
>>>> факт своих переживаний. Благодаря этому выступают некоторые
>>>> особенности,
>>>> характеризующие кризис семи лет.
>>>> 1. Переживания приобретают смысл (сердящийся ребенок понимает, что он
>>>> сердит), благодаря этому у ребенка возникают такие новые отношения
>>>> к себе,
>>>> которые были невозможны до обобщения переживаний. Как на шахматной
>>>> доске,
>>>> когда с каждым ходом возникают совершенно новые связи между
>>>> фигурками, так и
>>>> здесь возникают совсем новые связи между переживаниями, когда они
>>>> приобретают известный смысл. Следовательно, весь характер переживаний
>>>> ребенка к 7 годам перестраивается, как перестраивается шахматная
>>>> доска,
>>>> когда ребенок научился играть в шахматы.
>>>> 2. К кризису семи лет впервые возникает обобщение переживаний, или
>>>> аффективное обобщение, логика чувств. Есть глубоко отсталые дети,
>>>> которые на
>>>> каждом шагу переживают неудачи: обычные дети играют, ненормальный
>>>> ребенок
>>>> пытается присоединиться к ним, но ему отказывают, он идет по улице,
>>>> и над
>>>> ним смеются. Одним словом, он на каждом шагу проигрывает. В каждом
>>>> отдельном
>>>> случае у него есть реакция на собственную недостаточность, а через
>>>> минуту
>>>> смотришь -- он совершенно доволен собой. Тысячи отдельных неудач, а
>>>> общего
>>>> чувства своей малоценности нет, он не обобщает того, что случалось
>>>> уже много
>>>> раз. У ребенка школьного возраста возникает обобщение чувств, т.
>>>> е., если с
>>>> ним много раз случалась какая-то ситуация, у него" (page 379, S.S.
>>>> Tom. IV -
>>>> 1984)
>>>> "возникает аффективное образование, характер которого так же
>>>> относится к
>>>> единичному переживанию или аффекту, как понятие относится к
>>>> единичному
>>>> восприятию или воспоминанию. Например, у ребенка дошкольного
>>>> возраста нет
>>>> настоящей самооценки, самолюбия. Уровень наших запросов к самим
>>>> себе, к
>>>> нашему успеху, к нашему положению возникает именно в связи с
>>>> кризисом семи
>>>> лет.
>>>> Ребенок дошкольного возраста любит себя, но самолюбия как обобщенного
>>>> отношения к самому себе, которое остается одним и тем же в разных
>>>> ситуациях,
>>>> но самооценки как таковой, но обобщенных отношений к окружающим и
>>>> понимания
>>>> своей ценности у ребенка этого возраста нет. Следовательно, к 7 годам
>>>> возникает ряд сложных образований, которые и приводят к тому, что
>>>> трудности
>>>> поведения резко и коренным образом меняются, они принципиально
>>>> отличны от
>>>> трудностей дошкольного возраста.
>>>> Такие новообразования, как самолюбие, самооценка, остаются, а
>>>> симптомы
>>>> кризиса (манерничанье, кривляние) преходящи. В кризисе семи лет
>>>> благодаря
>>>> тому, что возникает дифференциация внутреннего и внешнего, что
>>>> впервые
>>>> возникает смысловое переживание, возникает и острая борьба
>>>> переживаний.
>>>> Ребенок, который не знает, какие взять конфеты -- побольше или
>>>> послаще, не
>>>> находится в состоянии внутренней борьбы, хотя он и колеблется.
>>>> Внутренняя
>>>> борьба (противоречия переживаний и выбор собственных переживаний)
>>>> становится
>>>> возможна только теперь. (etc.)"(page 380. S.S. Tom IV - 1984)
>>>> *********************
>>>> Well, here in this second quote, I'm no so insecure as about the
>>>> "concept
>>>> of Ya". Because I understand that there is something related to your
>>>> discussion, in important ontogenetic terms... I only remain don't
>>>> contributing about the own "name" that you search for... But the
>>>> process
>>>> itself seems to be within the same semantic field.
>>>> Thank you, and forgive me the interruption.
>>>> Best wishes.Achilles,from Brazil
>>>> *************
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:03:45 -0400
>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
>>>>> From: ellampert@gmail.com
>>>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> CC:
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike -
>>>>> I can relate to a LOT of trouble. Both notions are used in many
>>>>> different
>>>>> ways in the contexts of development and learning. A few weeks ago,
>>>>> during
>>>>> Vygotsky Summer School, Gennadiy Kravtsov and I had a long
>>>>> conversation
>>>>> about my cross-cultural research on reflection or as you say
>>>>> "reflexia".
>>>>>
>>>> He
>>>>
>>>>> talked about reflection/reflexivity in the context of
>>>>>
>>>> "self-consciousness"
>>>>
>>>>> and we discussed reflexivity as a condition for the development of
>>>>> self-consciousness. He believes that the notion of "self-
>>>>> consciousness" (
>>>>> that I distinguish from reflexivity) was never developed fully in
>>>>> cultural-historical tradition. Knowing that there is still lack of
>>>>> bridge
>>>>> between Russian and the rest of the world cultural-historical
>>>>> research, I
>>>>> wanted to learn whether there are studies that connect reflection (
>>>>> "reflexia") and self-consciousness. It is interesting that you
>>>>> mentioned
>>>>> both "reflexia" and "self-consciousness' in the context of
>>>>>
>>>> meta-cognition.
>>>>
>>>>> It seems to me that learning activity theory conceptualized
>>>>> reflection as
>>>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>>> metacognitive process, although Vygotsky never discussed it as a
>>>>>
>>>> cognitive,
>>>>
>>>>> or metacognitive process. There is also an important language
>>>>> difference,
>>>>> Russian language doesn't have an everyday use of the word
>>>>> reflection, it
>>>>> only exists as a philosophical or psychological notion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Part of this conversation was discussion of the nature of higher
>>>>> psychological functions. I am still puzzled with what Vygotsky
>>>>> meant by
>>>>> function ( Seth Chaiklin and I posed this question in 2002 and as we
>>>>> discussed recently and are still looking for an answer...:-), but
>>>>> Gennadi
>>>>> and I believe that reflection and will are not higher psychological
>>>>> functions. We are in the process of developing a proposal for the
>>>>> ISCAR
>>>>> symposium on these issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, I was just wondering if there are studies on the
>>>>> development
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>> self-consciousness and/or reflexivity that are not necessarily
>>>>> rooted in
>>>>> Russian philosophical thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you can see, I am in the state of questioning, so directions for
>>>>>
>>>> further
>>>>
>>>>> questioning will be highly appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Elina
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Elina--
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I spent a great many sessions with Russian grad students who were
>>>>>> interested
>>>>>> in this issue. We had a LOT of trouble with the fact that there
>>>>>> seem to
>>>>>>
>>>>> be
>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>>> whole lot of words that appear to refer in overlapping ways with
>>>>>> "self-consciousness."  Terms in the family of reflectivity,
>>>>>> reflexivity
>>>>>> came
>>>>>> up a lot among the Russian students, but they were trying hard to
>>>>>>
>>>>> figure
>>>>
>>>>> out
>>>>>> what the right English words were for whatever Russian term was
>>>>>> being
>>>>>>
>>>>> used.
>>>>
>>>>> Not just "samo-soznanie" was used in their conversations as well,
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> meta-cognition slipping in along with "reflexia."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am unsure what to suggest. What is occasion for the question?
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Elina
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wanted to express my appreciation of the quote you sign off
>>>>>>> with by
>>>>>>> Tagore.  It  captures the central imperative of foregrounding
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> context
>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> traditions in the emergence of self-consciousness [the string] BUT
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>> without the string there is no violin.
>>>>>>> I find myself often reflecting on the implications this
>>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>>> elaborates.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One suggestion I would like to suggest on the emergence of
>>>>>>> self-consciousness is Andy's vimeo podcast on the Historical
>>>>>>> roots of
>>>>>>> cultural-historical theory. [Hegel is central]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
>>>>>>> <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Hi, everyone,
>>>>>>>> I would appreciate if anyone can recommend publications on
>>>>>>>> self-consciousness in cultural-historical tradition. I am
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> interested in
>>>>
>>>>> any
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> references on this issue.
>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>>>> Elina
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it
>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin
>>>>>>>> string
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>> supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> violin
>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> string.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
>>>>> it and
>>>>>
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>>> responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string
>>>>> is
>>>>> supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
>>>>> violin and
>>>>> tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
>>>>> string.
>>>>> -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
>>> it and it
>>> responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is
>>> supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin
>>> and
>>> tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
>>> string.
>>> -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca