Re: [xmca] Question

[Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>]

Hi Elina,

You say:
> *Why do you think it is the case? I think it comes from Hegelian  
> tradition
> of a possibility of the mind to liberate a human being from the  
> contextual
> constrains.  Freedom is acquired through development of the  
> consciousness.
> And for Vygotsky, thinking, imagination , and will are  
> interconnected in
> this process.


Good point on Vygotsky and Hegel, and great quote.  I think another  
tradition that figures in with Vygotsky was Marx, who wanted to not  
just change minds, but everything around them!  LOL  And that is what  
I see in Vygotsky's ideas about self-control or will in chapter 12 of  
HDHMF.  He offers a way to view changing our environment to suit our  
needs as a human psychological function, a higher function, a social  
process - and not a biological process or a category of mind.

And so he says things like “ … the basic law of our behavior states  
that behavior is determined by situations and reaction is elicited by  
stimuli; for this reason the key to controlling behavior lies in  
controlling stimuli.”  V4 p210.

So we must change our circumstances in order to change ourselves.  It  
is interesting to think of this as what is occurring at the  
microgenetic level, including the act of reflecting - not controlling  
thinking directly, but micro-changing the mind-environment of the  
thoughts ...

- Steve


On Jul 31, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel wrote:

> Dear Steve,
>
> 2010/7/30 Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
>
> > Elina, you ask many intriguing and very good questions!  The  
> > symposium you
> > are developing will be very interesting.  A side point in your  
> > discussion
> > here on the nature of self-consciousness or reflection struck me -  
> > you
> > suggest that will may not be a higher psychological function.  I  
> > happen to
> > have some Vygotsky quotes handy to think about that with.
> *Thanks!*
>
> > In studying Vol 4 The History of the Development of the Higher Mental
> > Functions - a difficult but rewarding book - I have been struck by  
> > how much
> > emphasis Vygotsky puts on will, self-mastery, self-control as an  
> > essential
> > aspect of the development of all the higher mental functions.
> *Why do you think it is the case? I think it comes from Hegelian  
> tradition
> of a possibility of the mind to liberate a human being from the  
> contextual
> constrains.  Freedom is acquired through development of the  
> consciousness.
> And for Vygotsky, thinking, imagination , and will are  
> interconnected in
> this process.
> " The potential for free action that we find associated with the  
> emergence
> of human consciousness is closely connected with imagination., with  
> the
> unique psychological set of consciousness vis a vis reality that is
> manifested in imagination. Thus, interconnected in this single knot,  
> we find
> three of the gratest problems of the contemporary psychology, and of
> contemporary child psychology in particular: the problem of  
> thinking, the
> problem of imagination, and the problem of will." ( Vygotsky, 1987,  
> p.349)
>
> *
>
> > Some of this is new to me and quite fascinating.  So here is a quick
> > synopsis of what I am getting from this so far.    See what you  
> > think.
> >
> > According the Vygotsky, the higher mental functions themselves (e.g.
> > attention, perception, memory, imitation, thinking, speech, counting,
> > personality, world view) are the psychological aspect of cultural  
> > behavior.
> > *( I stumbled on cultural behavior, not a usual term to me. What do  
> > you
> > mean?)*
>
>
>
> > The development of the higher mental functions is an essential  
> > aspect of
> > cultural behavior, they are part and parcel of cultural behavior.   
> > They are
> > all, without exception, derived from social processes - encountered  
> > first
> > externally as a relationship with another person, and then  
> > internalized.
> > They are by no means fixed, but develop historically, based on the  
> > society,
> > social relations, forms of culture, etc.
> >
> > The concept of "the mastery of behavior through internal processes"  
> > is a
> > core theme for Vygotsky's theory of the higher mental functions.   
> > This is
> > the essence of will.  He emphasizes that human freedom and freedom  
> > of the
> > will can be found in the recognition of necessity (per Hegel,  
> > Engels, etc.),
> > and that "Human freedom consists specifically of man's ability to  
> > think."
> > Vol 4 p 209.  But humans can only control their behavior by  
> > controlling
> > their stimuli and situations.  So he says "... the great uniqueness  
> > of the
> > will consists of man having no power over his own behavior other  
> > than the
> > power that things have over his behavior. But man subjects to  
> > himself the
> > power of things over behavior, makes them serve his own purposes and
> > controls that power as he wants. He changes the environment with his
> > external activity and in this way affects his own behavior,  
> > subjecting it to
> > his own authority." p 212
> >
> > One way to describe his concept of will might be to say that will  
> > is not a
> > direct two-step process of willing-getting, but a mediated three step
> > process of willing-creating-getting.  "... will is never a direct,
> > unmediated process." p217 "We ... [can] not bring forth any process  
> > of
> > behavior and control it other that by creating an appropriate  
> > stimulus." p
> > 210
>
> *Exactly. Vygotsky insisted on the explanation of the goals rather  
> than
> causes of the action. I am in no way an expert of will. Gennadi  
> Kravtsov
> says that will encompasses intention and reflection. I would add that
> reflection in the act of will is not separated from action as it is an
> action itself.  *
>
> > So with those ideas in mind, I am curious what the concept of the  
> > higher
> > mental functions might look like if we view will as being something  
> > other
> > than a higher mental process.  Thoughts?
> >
> > - Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Elina said:
> > Part of this conversation was discussion of the nature of higher
> > psychological functions. I am still puzzled with what Vygotsky  
> > meant by
> > function ( Seth Chaiklin and I posed this question in 2002 and as we
> > discussed recently and are still looking for an answer...:-), but  
> > Gennadi
> > and I believe that reflection and will are not higher psychological
> > functions. We are in the process of developing a proposal for the  
> > ISCAR
> > symposium on these issues.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 30, 2010, at 11:11 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel wrote:
> >
> > Dear Achilles,
> > > Thank you very much for the contribution. There can't be an  
> > > interruption
> > > as
> > > it is a polylogical space I suppose.If we connect the Vygotskian
> > > description
> > > of development of self/ "ya" in the ontogenesis, then it points to  
> > > the
> > > important connections between reflexivity and self consciousness.
> > > - Crisis of seven years. Generalization of "perezivaniya" or as  
> > > Vygotsky
> > > calls it logic of feelings. The dual position of the child in play (
> > > Imaginary situation:" I am a soldier in pain as I was wounded "  
> > > and Real
> > > situation: My Mom is calling me for dinner and I am hungry) allows  
> > > the
> > > child
> > > to reflect on one of this "perezivanij' as the other, as object of
> > > reflection. In the process of the crisis of seven years as it is  
> > > noted in
> > > your last quote, the child because of the ability to distinguish  
> > > external
> > > and internal, evaluate her own success and failure develops self- 
> > > esteem
> > > and
> > > self -evaluation. It seems to me that reflection as a  
> > > psychological tool
> > > of
> > > experiencing imaginary and real position in play as well as the
> > > psychological tool that helps the child to look at herself as the  
> > > other is
> > > the condition for the development of the initial forms of self- 
> > > evaluation
> > > and self esteem through the crises of seven years.
> > >
> > > Interestingly enough in the research of Alexander Dusavitskii it was
> > > argued
> > > that when elementary school students in Davydov-El'konin  
> > > classrooms were
> > > asked to evaluate themselves, they would always evaluate their  
> > > work lower
> > > that it was, because the self-evaluation that emerged through the  
> > > crisis
> > > of
> > > seven years was not developed in the context of learning activity.  
> > > How to
> > > evaluate my own learning was "terra incognita" for them.
> > >
> > > *But the question is what is the role of "perezivaniye' in the  
> > > development
> > > of self-consciousness? * "Perezhivaniye" captures the unity of  
> > > affect and
> > > intellect and this unity seems very important for the development of
> > > self-consciousness.
> > >
> > > These are my thoughts so far...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2010/7/30 Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Mike and Elina,
> > > > This will not so deep as all you are talking about, but when I was
> > > > reading
> > > > here I remember of your discussion, I made a little connection,  
> > > > because
> > > > an
> > > > "auto-consciousness" influx for "auto-concept" (see the text  
> > > > about the
> > > > Crisis of Seven Years), and the first consciousness of child own
> > > > perezhivaniia, etc... Then this influx for me to the problem of the
> > > > concept
> > > > of our own "Ya" ... Please if this could seems much  
> > > > extemporaneous, by my
> > > > part, delete this message... But, let me try:
> > > > I - From Slovar' L.S. Vigoskogo (ed. A.A. Leont'ev, 2007):
> > > > Я - Понятие о <<Я>> развивается у
> > > > ребенка из понятия о других. (31.1, 163) Тот факт, что с  
> > > > дошкольного
> > > > возраста человек начинает по-мнить
> > > > последовательность событий, -- это то, что
> > > > старые психологи называли единством и тождеством <<Я>>. (5.2, 130)
> > > > <...> ребенок учит-ся в игре своему <<Я>>: создавая фиктивные точки
> > > > идентификации -- центры <<Я>>: irde социальная
> > > > природа <<Я>>. Ср. Rollenspiel (ролевая игра). <...> ребенок имеет
> > > > уже <<Я>>, но не осознает его, имеет внутренние процессы, но не  
> > > > сознает
> > > > их --
> > > > в игре prise de conscience о себе и своем сознании <...>  
> > > > Обозначение
> > > > <<Я>> в
> > > > игре, осознание мысли, <<я хочу>> -- в игре <."> Парадокс <<Я>>:  
> > > > в игре
> > > > то
> > > > радует, что я хочу,
> > > > эгоцентри-ческая деятельность; но здесь же ограничение изнутри от  
> > > > своего
> > > > мо-ментального
> > > > <<Я>>. (23.1, 291)
> > > >
> > > > См. Возраст, Игра, Понятие
> > > > See: "prise de conscience о себе"
> > > >
> > > > The actual references:
> > > > * 33.1: Эйдетика // Хрестоматия по ощущению и восприятию. М.,  
> > > > 1975. С.
> > > > 275-281 (1930)
> > > > * 5.2: Обучение и развитие в дошкольном
> > > > возрасте // Выготский. М.,1.С. 123-134
> > > > (1933)
> > > > * 23.1: Из записок-конспекта Л.С.
> > > > Выготского к лекциям по психоло-гии детей дошкольного возраста //
> > > > Эльконин
> > > > Д.Б. Психология игры. М., 1978. С. 289-294 (1933)
> > > > ************************
> > > >
> > > > II - From "Seven Years Crisis" (Tom IV):
> > > > "В 7-летнем возрасте мы имеем дело с началом возникновения такой
> > > > структуры
> > > > переживаний, когда ребенок начинает понимать, что значит <<я  
> > > > радуюсь>>,
> > > > <<я
> > > > огорчен>>, <<я сердит>>, <<я добрый>>, <<я злой>>, т. е. у него  
> > > > возникает
> > > > осмысленная ориентировка в собственных переживаниях. Точно так, как
> > > > ребенок
> > > > 3 лет открывает свое отношение с другими людьми, так семилетка  
> > > > открывает
> > > > сам
> > > > факт своих переживаний. Благодаря этому выступают некоторые  
> > > > особенности,
> > > > характеризующие кризис семи лет.
> > > > 1. Переживания приобретают смысл (сердящийся ребенок понимает,  
> > > > что он
> > > > сердит), благодаря этому у ребенка возникают такие новые  
> > > > отношения к
> > > > себе,
> > > > которые были невозможны до обобщения переживаний. Как на  
> > > > шахматной доске,
> > > > когда с каждым ходом возникают совершенно новые связи между  
> > > > фигурками,
> > > > так и
> > > > здесь возникают совсем новые связи между переживаниями, когда они
> > > > приобретают известный смысл. Следовательно, весь характер  
> > > > переживаний
> > > > ребенка к 7 годам перестраивается, как перестраивается шахматная  
> > > > доска,
> > > > когда ребенок научился играть в шахматы.
> > > > 2. К кризису семи лет впервые возникает обобщение переживаний, или
> > > > аффективное обобщение, логика чувств. Есть глубоко отсталые дети,  
> > > > которые
> > > > на
> > > > каждом шагу переживают неудачи: обычные дети играют, ненормальный  
> > > > ребенок
> > > > пытается присоединиться к ним, но ему отказывают, он идет по  
> > > > улице, и над
> > > > ним смеются. Одним словом, он на каждом шагу проигрывает. В каждом
> > > > отдельном
> > > > случае у него есть реакция на собственную недостаточность, а  
> > > > через минуту
> > > > смотришь -- он совершенно доволен собой. Тысячи отдельных неудач, а
> > > > общего
> > > > чувства своей малоценности нет, он не обобщает того, что  
> > > > случалось уже
> > > > много
> > > > раз. У ребенка школьного возраста возникает обобщение чувств, т.  
> > > > е., если
> > > > с
> > > > ним много раз случалась какая-то ситуация, у него" (page 379,  
> > > > S.S. Tom.
> > > > IV -
> > > > 1984)
> > > > "возникает аффективное образование, характер которого так же  
> > > > относится к
> > > > единичному переживанию или аффекту, как понятие относится к  
> > > > единичному
> > > > восприятию или воспоминанию. Например, у ребенка дошкольного  
> > > > возраста нет
> > > > настоящей самооценки, самолюбия. Уровень наших запросов к самим  
> > > > себе, к
> > > > нашему успеху, к нашему положению возникает именно в связи с  
> > > > кризисом
> > > > семи
> > > > лет.
> > > > Ребенок дошкольного возраста любит себя, но самолюбия как  
> > > > обобщенного
> > > > отношения к самому себе, которое остается одним и тем же в разных
> > > > ситуациях,
> > > > но самооценки как таковой, но обобщенных отношений к окружающим и
> > > > понимания
> > > > своей ценности у ребенка этого возраста нет. Следовательно, к 7  
> > > > годам
> > > > возникает ряд сложных образований, которые и приводят к тому, что
> > > > трудности
> > > > поведения резко и коренным образом меняются, они принципиально  
> > > > отличны от
> > > > трудностей дошкольного возраста.
> > > > Такие новообразования, как самолюбие, самооценка, остаются, а  
> > > > симптомы
> > > > кризиса (манерничанье, кривляние) преходящи. В кризисе семи лет  
> > > > благодаря
> > > > тому, что возникает дифференциация внутреннего и внешнего, что  
> > > > впервые
> > > > возникает смысловое переживание, возникает и острая борьба  
> > > > переживаний.
> > > > Ребенок, который не знает, какие взять конфеты -- побольше или  
> > > > послаще,
> > > > не
> > > > находится в состоянии внутренней борьбы, хотя он и колеблется.  
> > > > Внутренняя
> > > > борьба (противоречия переживаний и выбор собственных переживаний)
> > > > становится
> > > > возможна только теперь. (etc.)"(page 380. S.S. Tom IV - 1984)
> > > > *********************
> > > > Well, here in this second quote, I'm no so insecure as about the  
> > > > "concept
> > > > of Ya". Because I understand that there is something related to  
> > > > your
> > > > discussion, in important ontogenetic terms... I only remain don't
> > > > contributing about the own "name" that you search for... But the  
> > > > process
> > > > itself seems to be within the same semantic field.
> > > > Thank you, and forgive me the interruption.
> > > > Best wishes.Achilles,from Brazil
> > > > *************
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:03:45 -0400
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
> > > > > From: ellampert@gmail.com
> > > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > CC:
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike -
> > > > > I can relate to a LOT of trouble. Both notions are used in many
> > > > > different
> > > > > ways in the contexts of development and learning. A few weeks ago,
> > > > > during
> > > > > Vygotsky Summer School, Gennadiy Kravtsov and I had a long  
> > > > > conversation
> > > > > about my cross-cultural research on reflection or as you say  
> > > > > "reflexia".
> > > > He
> > > >
> > > > > talked about reflection/reflexivity in the context of
> > > > "self-consciousness"
> > > >
> > > > > and we discussed reflexivity as a condition for the development of
> > > > > self-consciousness. He believes that the notion of "self- 
> > > > > consciousness"
> > > > > (
> > > > > that I distinguish from reflexivity) was never developed fully in
> > > > > cultural-historical tradition. Knowing that there is still lack of
> > > > > bridge
> > > > > between Russian and the rest of the world cultural-historical  
> > > > > research,
> > > > > I
> > > > > wanted to learn whether there are studies that connect  
> > > > > reflection (
> > > > > "reflexia") and self-consciousness. It is interesting that you  
> > > > > mentioned
> > > > > both "reflexia" and "self-consciousness' in the context of
> > > > meta-cognition.
> > > >
> > > > > It seems to me that learning activity theory conceptualized  
> > > > > reflection
> > > > > as
> > > > a
> > > >
> > > > > metacognitive process, although Vygotsky never discussed it as a
> > > > cognitive,
> > > >
> > > > > or metacognitive process. There is also an important language
> > > > > difference,
> > > > > Russian language doesn't have an everyday use of the word  
> > > > > reflection, it
> > > > > only exists as a philosophical or psychological notion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Part of this conversation was discussion of the nature of higher
> > > > > psychological functions. I am still puzzled with what Vygotsky  
> > > > > meant by
> > > > > function ( Seth Chaiklin and I posed this question in 2002 and  
> > > > > as we
> > > > > discussed recently and are still looking for an answer...:-), but
> > > > > Gennadi
> > > > > and I believe that reflection and will are not higher  
> > > > > psychological
> > > > > functions. We are in the process of developing a proposal for  
> > > > > the ISCAR
> > > > > symposium on these issues.
> > > > >
> > > > > In any case, I was just wondering if there are studies on the
> > > > > development
> > > > of
> > > >
> > > > > self-consciousness and/or reflexivity that are not necessarily  
> > > > > rooted in
> > > > > Russian philosophical thought.
> > > > >
> > > > > As you can see, I am in the state of questioning, so directions  
> > > > > for
> > > > further
> > > >
> > > > > questioning will be highly appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Elina
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>  
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Elina--
> > > > > > I spent a great many sessions with Russian grad students who were
> > > > > > interested
> > > > > > in this issue. We had a LOT of trouble with the fact that there  
> > > > > > seem to
> > > > > be
> > > >
> > > > > a
> > > > > > whole lot of words that appear to refer in overlapping ways with
> > > > > > "self-consciousness."  Terms in the family of reflectivity,  
> > > > > > reflexivity
> > > > > > came
> > > > > > up a lot among the Russian students, but they were trying hard to
> > > > > figure
> > > >
> > > > > out
> > > > > > what the right English words were for whatever Russian term was  
> > > > > > being
> > > > > used.
> > > >
> > > > > Not just "samo-soznanie" was used in their conversations as  
> > > > > well, with
> > > > > > meta-cognition slipping in along with "reflexia."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am unsure what to suggest. What is occasion for the question?
> > > > > > mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com 
> > > > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > Elina
> > > > > > > I wanted to express my appreciation of the quote you sign off  
> > > > > > > with by
> > > > > > > Tagore.  It  captures the central imperative of foregrounding
> > > > > > context
> > > >
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > traditions in the emergence of self-consciousness [the string]  
> > > > > > > BUT
> > > > > > that
> > > >
> > > > > without the string there is no violin.
> > > > > > > I find myself often reflecting on the implications this  
> > > > > > > perspective
> > > > > > > elaborates.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One suggestion I would like to suggest on the emergence of
> > > > > > > self-consciousness is Andy's vimeo podcast on the Historical  
> > > > > > > roots of
> > > > > > > cultural-historical theory. [Hegel is central]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
> > > > > > > <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi, everyone,
> > > > > > > > I would appreciate if anyone can recommend publications on
> > > > > > > > self-consciousness in cultural-historical tradition. I am
> > > > > > > interested in
> > > >
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > > references on this issue.
> > > > > > > > Thanks in advance,
> > > > > > > > Elina
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one  
> > > > > > > > end of
> > > > > > > it
> > > >
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin  
> > > > > > > > string
> > > > > > > is
> > > >
> > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > violin
> > > >
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > string.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end  
> > > > > of it
> > > > > and
> > > > it
> > > >
> > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin  
> > > > > string is
> > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my  
> > > > > violin and
> > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin  
> > > > > string.
> > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of  
> > > it and
> > > it
> > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string  
> > > is
> > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my  
> > > violin and
> > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin  
> > > string.
> > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
> --
> I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of  
> it and it
> responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is
> supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin  
> and
> tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin  
> string.
> -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca

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