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Re: [xmca] The Missing Part
thanks =)
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, smago <smago@uga.edu> wrote:
> For those interested in translations of TS, the attached reviews by Van der
> Veer are very interesting, I think. You need to scroll down to p. 83 for the
> review on one of them. p
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Wagner Schmit
> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 9:46 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] The Missing Part
>
> What about the Spanish versions? Anyone has some comments about it?
>
> In Brazil we have "two" Portuguese versions of Thinking and Speech: one
> called "Pensamento e Linguagem" (Thinking and Speech =P) and another called
> "Construção do Pensamento e Linguagem" (Construction of Thinking and
> Speech).
>
> The first one is a translation of the 1962 Hanfmann-Kasanin translation,
> and it really is half the size of the other that is a direct translation
> from Russian (don't know wich russin source since the book is in the
> research group library and not here with me now).
>
> The first translation was published in 1987 (there may be older
> translations by other publishers) and the translation direct from russian
> was published in 2001.
>
> It is a shame my grandmother died before i could have learned russian with
> her =/
>
> Wagner Luiz Schmit
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 9:28 AM, ulvi icil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks David !
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2010/7/12, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>:
> > >
> > > Ulvi:
> > >
> > > Yes, it is missing from the Collected Works version. The Collected
> > > Works edition is based on the 1956-1982 Russian editions. There were
> > > many cuts made in 1956 and not all of them were repaired in 1982.
> > > These cuts are
> > not
> > > noted and the only way to find them is to go through the 1934 and
> > > the
> > > 1956-1982 two versions paragraph by paragraph, which is what we've
> > > been doing for three years now for our Korean translation.
> > >
> > > Kozulin is the only person who makes any part of the 1934 edition
> > available
> > > in English. But the problem with Kozulin is that he was only
> > > supposed to update--not rewrite--the 1962 Hanfmann-Kasanin
> > > translation which, most people will agree, is not a translation so
> > > much as a selective paraphrase (it was HALF the length of the
> > > original book). That means that although
> > the
> > > Kozulin book includes extremely well translated passages of the 1934
> > > material (and priceless footnotes and a great intro) the main body
> > > of the text is a pale copy of Thinking and Speech.
> > >
> > > I have to agree with Rene van der Veer and Luciano Meccaci: the 1934
> > > edition was virtually complete when Vygotsky died, and this is
> > > therefore
> > the
> > > only canonical edition. No adequate translation of this edition into
> > English
> > > exists. Therefore, we have no authoritative edition of Thinking and
> > Speech.
> > >
> > > If (like me) you cannot read and understand it well enough in
> > > Russian, my advice is to read it in French (but this is still the
> > > 1982 edition) or Italian (the 1934 edition in all its glory, with
> > > only a very few minor errors!). Or you could learn Korean!
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Seoul National University of Education
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 7/12/10, ulvi icil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: ulvi icil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] The Missing Part
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 12:53 AM
> > >
> > >
> > > David,
> > > Is this part missing also in Col. Works edition?
> > > Ulvi
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2010/7/12, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>:
> > > >
> > > > This is the beginning of Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech that
> > > > was
> > not
> > > > translated into English. I posted it once several years ago, and
> > > > Anton thought it didn't add very much.
> > > >
> > > > I think it does: it structures the whole chapter, because it makes
> > > > it
> > > clear
> > > > that Freud, Levy-Bruhl, and Blondel share a common idealist basis
> > > > as
> > well
> > > as
> > > > a common canonical stature.
> > > >
> > > > ≪Мы полагаем, . говорит он, . что настанет день, когда мысль
> > > > ребенка
> > > по
> > > > отношению к мысли нормального цивилизованного взрослого будет
> > > > помещена
> > в
> > > ту
> > > > же плоскость, в какой находится ≪примитивное мышление≫,
> > > охарактеризованное
> > > > Леви-Брюлем, или аутистическая и символическая мысль, описанная
> > > > Фрейдом
> > и
> > > > его учениками, или ≪болезненное сознание≫, если только это
> > понятие,
> > > > введенное Блонделем, не сольется в один прекрасный день с
> > > > предыдущим понятием≫ (1, с.408).1 Действительно, появление его
> > > > первых работ по историческому значению этого факта для дальнейшего
> > > > развития психологической мысли должно быть
> > по
> > > > справедливости сопоставлено и сравнено с датами выхода в свет
> > > > ≪Les
> > > fonctions
> > > > mentales dans les societes inferieures≫ Леви-Брюля,
> > > > ≪Толкования
> > > сновидений≫
> > > > Фрейда или ≪La conscience morbide≫ Блонделя. Больше того,
> > > > между
> > > этими
> > > > явлениями в различнейших областях научной психологии есть не
> > > > только
> > > внешнее
> > > > сходство, определяемое уровнем их исторического значения, но
> > > > глубокое, кровное, внутреннее родство . связь по самой сути
> > > > заключенных и
> > > воплощенных
> > > > в них философских и
> > > > психологических тенденций. Недаром сам Пиаже в огромной мере
> > > > опирался в своих исследованиях и построениях на эти три работы и
> > > > на их авторов.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > “It is therefore our belief", says (Piaget), "that the day will
> > > > come
> > when
> > > > child thought will be placed on the same level in relation to
> > > > adult,
> > > normal,
> > > > and civilized thought as ‘primitive mentality’, as defined by
> > Lévy-Bruhl,
> > > as
> > > > autistic and symbolical thought as described by Freud and his
> > > > disciples
> > > and
> > > > as ‘morbid consciousness,’ assuming that this last concept, which
> > > > we
> > owe
> > > to
> > > > M. Ch. Blondel, is not simply fused with the former.” (p.
> > > > 201-202). In reality, the appearance of this first works, in
> > > > regard to the historic importance as a fact for future reference
> > > > in the development of psychological thought must be on the
> > > > compared with the appearance of
> > “Les
> > > > fonctions mentales dans les societes inferieures” of Levi- Bruhl,
> > Freud’s
> > > > “The interpretation of dreams’, or Blondel’s “La conscience morbide”.
> > It
> > > is
> > > > not simply that between these phenomena in the development of the
> > > > field
> > > of
> > > > scientific psychology there is a formal resemblance, determined by
> > > > their level of historic importance, but that there is a deep,
> > > > internal kinship, a connection in essence which is
> > > visible
> > > > in their philosophical and psychological tendencies. Not without
> > > > reason
> > > does
> > > > Piaget himself base in enormous measure his own studies and
> > constructions
> > > on
> > > > these three works and on their authors.
> > > >
> > > > Last night I was re-reading Bleuler's criticisms of Freud in
> > > > "Autistic Thinking" and I also came upon these words, which
> > > > Vygotsky quotes approvingly.
> > > >
> > > > "Examining the more grown-up child, I also do not much observe
> > > > that he would prefer the imaginary apple to the real. The imbecile
> > > > and the
> > savage
> > > > are alike practitioners of Realpolitik and the latter, (exactly
> > > > like
> > us,
> > > who
> > > > stand at the apex of cognitive ability) makes his autistic
> > > > stupidities
> > > only
> > > > in such cases when reason and experience prove insufficient: in
> > > > his
> > ideas
> > > > about the universe, about the phenomena of nature, in his
> > > > understanding
> > > of
> > > > diseases and other blows of destiny, in adopting measures to
> > > > shield
> > > himself
> > > > from them, and in other relationships which are too complex for him.”
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me that here and elsewhere in this chapter Bleuler is
> > arguing
> > > > for, and Vygotsky is agreeing with, a position that is
> > > > simultaneously universalist, relativist, and developmentalist. It
> > > > is universalist in
> > the
> > > > sense that it argues for a universal human autistic response to
> > > > areas
> > of
> > > > experience of which we are ignorant. It is relativist in the sense
> > > > that
> > > it
> > > > argues for the independence of an "autistic" response from
> > > > rationality
> > > and
> > > > an autonomous art and autonomous humanities based on that
> > > > independence
> > > that
> > > > is in no way subordinate to rationality. It is developmentalist in
> > > > the
> > > sense
> > > > that it argues for an autistic response which develops out of a
> > > > narrow, immediately realistic (perception based?) reality function
> > > > rather than
> > > vice
> > > > versa (as in Freud, Janet, and Levy-Bruhl).
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Seoul National University of Education
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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