Re: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology (reading Holowinsky, part 1)

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Oh, I think you are right, Eugene. Many navigated or tried to navigate
around Leninism-Stalinism. Many in the US try to navigate around no child
left behind.
Some residents of the USSR in the 1980's also tried to navigate around their
circumstances. Some managed to do so. Some did not. I was just told of a
grandma who has been unable to obtain a passport to come to the US because
she lives/lived in a "closed city."  And this in a democratic Russia. Who
would believe it?

Referring to a child of P.I. Zinchenko as Taras seemed to me like nonsense.
Sorry if the word offends you. What would you call that claim? I thought of
Taras Bulba.

I guess I am too old to be cut out for this topic. Memory and experience get
so mixed together in retrospect.

That is what I think, but I am very unsure of whether I am correct or not.
mike
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu> wrote:

> Thanks a lot, Anton, very interesting....
>
> Mike, Makarenko was affiliated with NVKD. According to a recent very
> interesting Russian documentary 2005 "The family secret of Anton Makarenko"
> (for Russian speakers you can watch it at
> http://rutube.ru/tracks/2204180.html?v=ce602e2c84b5a2116977276c5af4d16c)
> that was produced with help of Makarenko's survived relatives (some of
> which
> is a very famous Russian actress Ekaterina Vasil'eva, Makarenko's
> grandniece
> - I did not know about that!), Makarenko worked for NKVD as his protection
> against Krupskaya who constantly attacked Makarenko since the mid-20s on.
> As
> scholars of the Stalinist science (including Anton) wrote, the 20s were
> characterized by diversity of power centers in the USSR (within the Party
> and Soviet government bureaucracies), so it was possible for scientists and
> practitioners to maneuver among them like Makarenko and, probably, Vygotsky
> and company did. However, in the early 30th, Stalin consolidated and
> centralized power and maneuvering among the centers of power became
> impossible as the new centralized power dynamics emerged. It seemed to
> become the end of any scientific independence that was existing in the
> 1920s.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Eugene
> PS I think we should avoid dismissive language like "nonsense" when we
> disagree.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Anton Yasnitsky
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 2:56 PM
> > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology (reading Holowinsky, part
> 1)
> >
> > Just a clarification: The post that I pointed us to is NOT nonsense,
> nonsense is
> > what is quoted in this post.
> >
> > So, the quote is from another opus magnum on Soviet pedology by Dr.
> > Holowinsky who, in his paper Holowinsky, Ivan Z. (1993). Pedology in
> Europe
> > and Developmental Psychology in Ukraine. School Psychology International,
> > 14 (4), 327-338 states:
> >
> > One of Zaporozhets's younger students was P.I. Zinchenko who
> > > made a significant contribution in research on memory processes. His
> > >dissertation on involuntary (incidental) memory became a classical work
> > >in that field. Zinchenko's children Vasyl and Taras continue into the
> > >present important research efforts in their own right (p. 332).
> > >Comment.
> >
> > First, both Aleksander Zaporozhets (1905-1981) and Petr Zinchenko (1903-
> > 1969) were the students of AN Leontiev (1903-1979), who defended their
> > dissertations around the same time in 1935-36, and, for a number of
> reasons,
> > P. Zinchenko can hardly qualify as a "younger student" Zaporozhets.
> >
> > Second, Petr Zinchenko, indeed, had two children, whose names started
> > with "V" and "T". Indeed, both became prominent psychologists.
> > Furthermore, the "V" became a full member of Academy of Pedagogical
> > Sciences of the Soviet Union (Russian Academy of Education these days)
> and
> > the member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. A number of his
> > books were translated into English and are not unfamiliar to Western
> scholars,
> > see, e.g. Formation of visual images; studies of stabilized retinal
> images
> [by]
> > V.P. Zinchenko and N. Yu. Vergiles. Consultants Bureau 1972 OR The
> > psychometrics of fatigue. Zinchenko, V.P. Taylor & Francis, 1985
> >
> >
> > The only problem is that the "V" guy is not a person with a Ukrainian
> name
> > "Vasyl'" but Vladimir, whereas, the "T" guy is not seemingly another
> > Ukrianian male Taras, but rather a female scholar, also with a list of
> > publications, Tat'yana Petrovna Zinchenko.
> >
> > I find this example quite characteristic for this specific author, whose
> work
> > often occurs, like in this case, hilariously funny.
> >
> > My comments on Vygotsky and pedology paper will follow "under separate
> > cover"...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > To: ablunden@mira.net; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 9:16:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology
> >
> > Gentlemen--
> >
> > The post that Anton pointed us to is nonsense. The article on Pedology is
> > more interesting, although he does mischaracterize me as THE editor of
> Mind
> > in Society. Some interesting refs there. The article was written in about
> 1987
> > at a time when it was not so easy to get straight information on these
> > matters. The Makarenko stuff was interesting. I didn't know he was
> > connected with the NKVD  (assuming that is true).
> >
> > Ease up. history is long, life is short.
> > mike
> >
> > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Fair point, Anton. I didn't check it because I didn't feel I qualified
> > > as someone 'familiar with Vladimir Petrovich Zinchenko', though I did
> > > 'know about the existence of such person'. I've read some of his work
> > > but I know nothing about the person beyond that. I have always tended
> > > to confuse the two Zinchenkos; are  they father and son? I have
> > > checked it now, of course, and from your comment I guess there must be
> > > a gross factual error in that little paragraph. But I can't tell. I'll
> have to trust
> > you.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > >
> > > Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
> > >
> > >> Andy,
> > >>
> > >> I am under the impression you did not check out the link,
> > >> specifically, the quote in English. If not, please, feel free to do
> > >> so. Just in case, here is the link again:
> > >>
> > >> http://community.livejournal.com/psyhistorik/27712.html
> > >>
> > >> Please let us know if you do not believe this example counts as a
> > >> justification.
> > >>
> > >> Anton
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----
> > >> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >> Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 8:12:24 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology
> > >>
> > >> Anton,
> > >> When political leaders in my country tell you that another person is
> > >> a fool but don't have time to justify their claim they say: "Trust
> me!"
> > >>
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >> Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Here is my first reaction to Eugene's question, the rest will follow
> > >>> when I find time to fully enjoy the paper in question:
> > >>>
> > >>> Below is the link to my favourite example of Holowinsky's
> > >>> scholarship that can be best appreciated by anybody familiar with
> > >>> Vladimir Petrovich Zinchenko, or who at least knows about the
> > >>> existence of such person and the basics of his genealogy:
> > >>>
> > >>> http://community.livejournal.com/psyhistorik/27712.html
> > >>>
> > >>> Enjoy :)
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ----- Original Message ----
> > >>> From: Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu>
> > >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >>> Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 4:13:32 PM
> > >>> Subject: RE: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology
> > >>>
> > >>> Dear Anton-
> > >>>
> > >>> Can you elaborate on Holowinsky's points in his article that you
> > >>> view as wrong, please? And what is your basis for this criticism?
> > >>> I'm asking these questions not because I want to challenge your
> > >>> views but because I want to learn more about this interesting and
> > >>> potentially influential history and you are a specilist in this
> > >>> area.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>
> > >>> Eugene
> > >>> PS I was surprised to read in Holowinsky's article about Makarenko's
> > >>> opposition to pedology. Do you know more about that, by any chance?
> > >>> ---------------------
> > >>> Eugene Matusov, Ph.D.
> > >>> Professor of Education
> > >>> School of Education
> > >>> University of Delaware
> > >>> 16 W Main st.
> > >>> Newark, DE 19716, USA
> > >>>
> > >>> email: ematusov@udel.edu
> > >>> fax: 1-(302)-831-4110
> > >>> website: http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu
> > >>> publications: http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/vita/publications.htm
> > >>>
> > >>> Dialogic Pedagogy Forum: http://diaped.soe.udel.edu
> > >>> ---------------------
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>  -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> > >>>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Anton Yasnitsky
> > >>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 4:55 PM
> > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] help
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If I may add a comment, the author, as a rule,  presents a lot of
> > >>>>
> > >>> ridiculous--to
> > >>>
> > >>>> say just "erroneous" would be a gross understatement--stuff in his
> > >>>>
> > >>> writings,
> > >>>
> > >>>> so I would like to thank Mike for the paper and am anticipating a
> > >>>> really hilarious reading :)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Anton
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----
> > >>>> From: Joao <jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br>
> > >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >>>> Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 9:11:14 PM
> > >>>> Subject: [xmca] help
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi...
> > >>>> I need to find the paper "Vygotsky and the History of Pedology" of
> > >>>> Ivan Z.
> > >>>> Holowinsky. (School Psychology International, v. 9, 1988) Can
> > >>>> anyone help me?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Joao Martins
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>>
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> > >>
> > > --
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -- Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>+61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden An
> > > Interdisciplinary Theory of Activity: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> > >
> > >
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