[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [xmca] The Interpersonal Is Not the Sociocultural
Mike--
I don't understand this Russian position. Can you explain?
If the zoped (the next moment of development) only exists in schools, then why does LSV clearly say that
a) Play par excellence creates a zone of proximal development?
b) Play is no longer the predominant activity in schooling?
Wouldn't that suggest, that PLAY, especially amongst siblings and friends at different levels of development, was the form of zoped which existed and evolved for thousands of years prior to modern schooling? How did humans develop WITHOUT the zone of next development?
Taken together, doesn't all this suggest that schooling is a fairly modern and not yet very efficient form of the zone of proximal development? This is very obvious in foreign language teaching, an almost pure form of learning academic concepts, because classrooms are rather bad places to learn foreign languages for use.
Finally, if there is no zone of development outside of school, then what was the point of elaborating the next zone of development for one to seven year olds, which Vygotsky was trying to do right up to the moment of his death? (Volume Five)
I must have got ahold of the wrong end of the schtick....
David Kellogg
Seoul National University of Education
--- On Thu, 3/25/10, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
Subject: Re: [xmca] The Interpersonal Is Not the Sociocultural
To: lchcmike@gmail.com
Cc: "Schmittau, Jean" <jschmitt@binghamton.edu>, "David Bakhurst" <david.bakhurst@queensu.ca>, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 25, 2010, 10:00 PM
mike cole wrote:
> That zoped is specifically meant to apply to the problem of moving from
> everyday to scientific concepts (using locally politically incorrect terminology) and does NOT apply to development out of school.
> I like David's use of "academic concepts."
OK. It sounds to me like the view is that zopeds are restricted to acquisition of (true) conceptual knowledge. My view is that in the context of the USSR, "scientific" had a certain connotation (which we would not share) arising from the fact that the official ideology was (scientific) marxism and there was in a sense only one institution (and one ideology), which also totally penetrated everyday life, at least insofar as it could be talked and written about. Our Russian colleagues of course may know better. I personally don't think "academic" is right either, because the academy is a specific kind of institution (in which many of us live) but the academy does not have a monopoly on the creation and transmission of conceptual knowledge.
My view remains that concepts arise in and are transmitted through institutions. "Institutions" is a word which of course opens up a whole new domain of debate, but I think we are a step closer with that debate. The cultural products of institutions penetrate everyday life and in everyday life they interpenetrate one another in the thinking and activity of all adults engaged in public life.
-----------------------------------------
>
> I do not understand fully the objection to perceptual versus semiotic
> understanding of concepts David mentions and that you apparently
> agree with.
No I didn't agree with David on this. I agreed that I have an Activity perspective, but for me Activity is *artefact- (read sign)-mediated activity*. Semiosis may also refer to a particular current of theory (Peirce et al) and as an idea, semiosis certainly has distinct roots, separately from Activity (whose roots are Herder, Fichte, Hess, Marx) but of these only Marx (and Goethe) developed any semiotic ideas, and in both cases these were philosophically undeveloped. In my view Vygotsky represents the confluence of these two currents, thus "artefact-mediated actions."
> agree with. I pointed to Davydov because he so clearly DOEs draw on Hegel, right up to the point of arguing, in his interpretation, that primitives think like children (a scandalous assertion at LCHC!) as well as the
> apparently contradictory assertion that one will never observe educational activity in a school. (He sins here, apparently, again, along with Engestrom, who refers to most educational "activity" as "school going activity"). But a la normal XMCA discourse, my late note appeared in a different discourse context so got interpreted (naturally!) as advocacy of a view i am still trying to work out.
I share with Davydov an activity-reading of Hegel. I differ with him on several points to do with the understanding of everyday life and institutions I think. My guess is that Davydov was well aware of the limitations he was subject to.
---------------------------------
>
> Apparently germ cells are out and something else is in. Seemed to me that Davydov was no fool, even when he played the part, and that the evidence vis a vis math education indicated that when it was possible to implement his ideas, even in American schools (cf Schmittau), they worked just as he said they would.(Or David B of constitutional fame?)
My concern with these methods is that they are designed to produce kind of "nerds," i.e., people who have a Sheldon-like knowledge of specialized disciplines, but don't understand everyday life. A crude formula, but I hope that it will do amongst friends. If you want mathematicians (or jihadists), then Davydov can tell you how to do it. If you want them to make good decisions about voting and marriage as well, well, I would not ban spontaneous concepts from the classroom.
>
> If Peter M was reading all this, what would he say? Or Jean? Will whatever they had to say come through in a review on MCA?
>
> Khwoo nose?
> mike
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
> Mike, what particular issues do your Russians raise against your
> thought that zopeds extend beyond schooling:
>
> * age levels?
> * trained teachers?
> * learning as the leading activity?
> * instituional framework?
> * formal structure of schooling?
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
> Have these very stimulating ideas been taken up by Minerva or
> the Owl,
> David?
>
> I turns out that in the past week, while not observing Iguanas,
> I have been
> reading Brothers Karamazov. Perezhivanie land. And thinking
> about issues of
> learning outside of schools, historically or culturally "before
> schools,"
> where issues of emotion, broadly construed, come to the fore.
>
> I have been excoriated by Russians for thinking that the idea of
> a zoped
> extends beyond schooling, but this line of discussion and the
> way it has
> been re-posed in the discussion brings starkly to mind the kinds
> of emotions
> that kids ordinarily experience in classrooms. How often, under what
> conditions, could these emotions be considered conducive to
> development or
> the creation of a zoped?
>
> Sometime, but can we generalize about the conditions?
> Does Franklin in the blocks.... an example from a preschool, count?
> And in the second language learning conditions that you so
> eloquently
> and intricately seek to instruct us with?
>
> This line of discussion seems important, even if i cannot tie it
> to all the
> threads swirling around xmca's version of Pandora.
>
>
> mike
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 4:37 PM, David Kellogg
> <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com <mailto:vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>>wrote:
>
> A while ago someone (perhaps the author himself) circulated
> Michael G.
> Levykh's remarkable "The Affective Establishment and
> Maintenance of
> Vygotsky's Zone of Proximal Development" (Eductional Theory
> 58 [1]: 83-101)
> on this list, but I didn't get around to reading it until
> this weekend.
>
> It seems to me that the paper makes three points that are
> germane to the
> "Play" thread (and also to Beth and Robert's paper, if that
> is still under
> discussion), but FAILS to make one point which I think is
> really important
> enough to change the subject line (besides which the "Owl of
> Minerva" is
> really a joke that probably only Andy fully understands even
> though I was
> the one who originally made it; I often make jokes that I
> don't really
> understand, just to see if I will laugh).
>
> First of all, Michael's paper points out that the fashion
> for "extending"
> the ZPD in an "affective" direction is just reinventing the
> wheel; the ZPD
> never excluded affective factors in the first place, and in
> the first
> chapter of Thinking and Speech we are clearly told that
> affective factors
> are part parcel of every meaningful word and gesture. They
> are an enabling
> condition--nay, a precondition--not only for communicative
> speech but also
> for reflective verbal thinking.
>
> Secondly, Michael's paper differentiates between shared
> emotions and
> private ones, and argues that it's really not enough to have
> the latter in
> our classrooms. So there is an important sense in which
> every successful
> class is an artwork, that is, a work of social emotion. He
> gives an example
> from my own field, foreign language learning, on pp. 98-99
> (and in fact the
> example he gives, of learners (re)producing some of Carolyn
> Graham's jazz
> chants in a doctor's ofice, is both positive and a negative
> example of
> this).
>
> Thirdly, Michael's paper applies this idea of shared emotion
> to the
> distinction between "obuchenie" on the one hand and the various
> misinterpretations, both teaching-learning (Soviet) and
> learning-leaning
> (Western) given Vygotsky's teachings on teaching. The key
> and unexplored
> precondition that differentiates "obuchenie" from the
> mistranslation
> "instruction" is the creation of shared emotion. The key and
> unexplored
> precondition that differentiates "obuchenie" from the
> mistranslation
> "learning" (which Mike points out in his MCA editorial) is
> the sharing of
> propositional ATTITUDES and not simply the sharing of
> propositions.
>
> This is powerful stuff, and reading it I was quite envious,
> because I
> always fancied that I was going to be the one who argued
> that Vygotsky had
> in mind a whole 'nother side to his work, a set of higher
> EMOTIONAL
> functions that included concepts such as fairness, justice,
> solidarity,
> altruism...you know, the sort of emotional function that
> makes it more
> necessary to develop somebody else's idea than to be first
> in line to take
> credit for a new one.
>
> These higher emotional functions, that have both an ethical
> (altruistic) and an aesthetic (realist) element are as much
> the foundation
> of moral and artistic education as logical memory or
> conceptual thinking are
> the foundations of science and mathematical education. They
> are also every
> bit as much culturally produced and socially shared.
>
> But I am not at all convinced that they are esssentially
> interpersonal,
> that is, that they can arise from what we in Korean call the
> "Neo-Na"
> (I-thou) or "Jugeoni-Padgeoni" (Give and Accept)
> relationship between
> individuals, not even generalized into an abstract
> universal. I don't think
> that they can simply be arrived at by a kind of Piagetian
> reversibility in
> relations (wash my back and I'll wash yours, as we say in
> the Korean
> sauna).
>
> Even Bakhtin, who in many places seems to utterly reduce the
> sociocultural
> to the interpersonal, emphasizes that it is the JOURNEY to
> the other's point
> of view, and above all the RETURN which is transformative.
> In Moby Dick,
> Starbuck remonstrates with Ahab, protesting that the whale
> is only a dumb
> creature, and to hate the animal is blasphemous, because it
> means treating
> it as man's equal. Ahab responds by making Vygotsky's
> distinction between
> empirical, everyday concepts and scientific ones:
>
> "Hark ye yet again--the little lower layer. All visible
> objects, man,are
> but as pasteboard masks. But in each event--in the living
> act, the undoubted
> deed--there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts
> forth the mouldings
> of its features from behind the unreasoning mask.If man will
> strike, strike
> through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except
> by thrusting
> through the wall?"
>
> Ahab realizes that by his own argument, he could be
> committing another type
> of blasphemy; the white whale might be SUPERhuman rather
> than subhuman, and
> he, Ahab, might be engaged in a personal war with God.
>
> So, like a dextrous politician, Ahab shifts his argument:
> "Now it's
> personal", he tells Starbuck.
>
> "Talk not to me of blasphemy,man; I'd strike the sun if it
> insulted me. For
> could the sun do that,then could I do the other; since there
> is ever a sort
> of fair play herein, jealousy presiding over all creations."
>
> The word "jealousy" brings him up short. And then he ends,
> rather lamely,
> thus:
>
> "But not my master, man,is even that fair play. Who's over
> me? Truth hath
> no confines."
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
>
>
> --- On Sun, 3/21/10, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu
> <mailto:packer@duq.edu>> wrote:
>
>
> From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu <mailto:packer@duq.edu>>
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Play and the Owl of Minerva
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> Date: Sunday, March 21, 2010, 3:41 PM
>
>
> Larry,
>
> This is what is called, in hermeneutic theory, the
> characteristic of
> "projection." All understanding of an object, event, or
> situation, and hence
> all interpretation (which is the articulation of
> understanding) is its
> projection, in three senses. First, in terms of a practical
> project. Second,
> as a projectile has been thrown forward from the past into
> the future.
> Third, it is projected onto a background (rather as a film
> is 'projected' in
> a screen), so that what shows itself is always in the terms
> (loosely
> speaking) that this background makes possible.
>
> I don't know whether this will rid you of puzzlement! But
> yes it's better
> than crosswords.
>
> Martin
>
> On Mar 21, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Larry Purss wrote:
>
> Martin, Andy, Luiz
> Thank you for your reflections on tnis topic which I
> have to admit leaves
>
> me more puzzled than ever (but it is more interesting than
> doing crossword
> puzzles.
>
> I wanted to add a few more thoughts from Ingrid Joseph's
> notions on this
>
> topic and the dimension of TIME in self-development.
>
> She points out that polyvalent symbolic networks are
> dynamic and FUTURE
>
> oriented as social PERSPECTIVES and TIME are dynamically
> interwoven.
>
> The PRESENT as-IS functions as an intersection BETWEEN
> as-WAS and future
>
> as-if-could-be states. STABILITY of meaning is provided by
> the fact that
> that the past is projected into the future, whereas CHANGE
> results from the
> TRANSFORMATION of the past by the future as-if-could-be.
> Ingrid states,
> "possible futures are nourished by the past, but at the same
> time the past
> is changed by the ANTICIPATED future" (Crites 1986 as
> quoted by Ingrid,
> 1998 p. 192) Through this DOUBLE MOVEMENT in the present
> AS-IS, the present
> moves towards its immediate future, and becomes a NEW
> PRESENT. and the
> process begins again.
>
> If the role of either past (as-was) or future
> (as-if-could be) becomes
>
> DOMINANT in a one sided manner, sel-development becomes
> blocked and movement
> becomes stuck (emotions also become stuck)
>
> Food for continuing thought
>
> Larry
>
> ----- Original Message -----,
> From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu <mailto:packer@duq.edu>>
> Date: Sunday, March 21, 2010 11:51 am
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Play and the Owl of Minerva
> To: ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>,
> "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
>
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>
> Big topic, Andy, and I can't afford to get
> distracted from
> trying to figure out LSV on concepts! But it has to
> be said that
> science is hermeneutic too. There is not a single
> science that
> is not concerned with understanding traces, signs,
> indices, even
> symbols. That's to say, science is all about "taking
> something
> *as* something" (as Heidegger put it) and so "saying
> something
> of something," (as Aristotle had it, in his On
> Interpretation).
>
> Martin
>
> On Mar 20, 2010, at 9:11 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> A while ago I was obliged to deal with the work
> of Roy
>
> Bhaskar. What Bhaskar does is insist on the ontology
> of natural
> science in every aspect of life, including for
> example, literary
> criticism and cultural anthropology. The editor
> makes a nice
> point with an anecdote: he is at a seminar on J-P
> Sartre. A
> student in the audience calls out "Do you really
> think that
> someone called J-P Sartre existed?" Obivously an
> inappropriate
> application of relativism, which then opens the way
> for his own
> dogmatism.>
>
> I was drawn to the conclusion that it is
> dogmatism to insist
>
> on one true ontology (here I mean ontology the general,
> classical, not the Sartrean sense) for all
> activities at all
> times. Natural science is an activity which by its
> very nature
> must assume that there is a natural world out there
> whose
> properties and forms can be known. This is not true
> of any
> activity where reality is in a significant degree
> formed by and
> interconnected with, human activity and in the case
> of the
> natural sciences breaks down in certain
> circumstances at certain
> times.>
>
> So I don't accept that naturalistic ontology is
> a *myth* of
>
> the natural sciences. It is an essential part of natural
> science. But it is not universal. It is just as
> dogmatic to
> insist on hermeneutic relativism in natural science
> as it is to
> insist on naturalistic realism in hermeneutics, etc.
>
> Andy
>
> Martin Packer wrote:
>
> Larry,
> Yes, it has for a long time been part of the
> myth of modern
>
> science that it discloses things as they 'really
> are,' not as
> they 'appear' to be. LSV falls into this way of
> speaking (or at
> least his translators do). The most powerful analyses of
> science, philosophical, historical and sociological,
> in my
> opinion, show that it is thoroughly enchanted.
> Science involves
> seeing (and thinking of) things 'as if.' So Kuhn
> explained
> paradigms in terms of 'seeing as' - a duck or a
> rabbit. So every
> introduction I have seen of gravity in relativity
> theory uses
> the image of space sagging like a rubber sheet
> around masses,
> even though this image is inadequate once one gets
> deeper into
> the math. Seeing space 'as if' it were rubber is a
> necessary
> step into this branch of science. Each science
> has/is its own
> imaginary.>> Martin
>
> On Mar 20, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Larry Purss wrote:
>
> Luiz
> That was an interesting thread you sent
> on play and games
>
> and the tension between the concepts.
>
> It is a fascinating topic.
> I want to bring into the conversation a
> fascinating
>
> perspective on the place of the fictional and
> imaginary in play
> (and other activity).
>
> First for some context.
> I've always been curious about the
> antinomy often reflected
>
> in the tension between imagination/reality and the
> literature on
> modernity as the disenchantment of the world and the
> reaction to
> this privleging the as-IS reality over the as-IF
> reality.
> There is a counter literature on finding ways to
> re-enchant the world.
>
> Often science is seen as the villan who
> is responsible for
>
> the loss of the as-IF reality, as children move
> beyond playful
> imagination into the real world.
>
> Piaget's notions of animism as
> indicating immature thinking.
> INGRID E. JOSEPHS takes a radically
> different perspective on
>
> the tension between the imaginary as-IF
> constructions and the
> figure-ground type relation to as-IS reality.
>
> She wrote an article in HUMAN
> DEVELOPMENT 1198, Volume 41,
>
> pages 180-195 which explains very clearly this
> alternative
> interpretation of the as-IS and as-IF dialectic and
> how it
> infuses meaning with e-motion and explains the
> process of
> Vygotsky's internalization and Mead's I-ME dialectic.
>
> Following is a quick summary of Ingrid's
> perspective on the
>
> imaginary in our devlopment.
>
> Symbol formation implies a TRANSCENDENCE
> of the here-and-now
>
> as-IS world by construction of the imaginary as-IF
> world.
> Ingrid's standpoint is an extension of Hans
> Vaihinger's [1911-
> 1986] "philosophy of the "AS-IF" as his notion of
> FICTIONALISM
> as an independent version of PRAGMATISM. (as an
> aside Alfred
> Adler said this book transformed his life).
>
> Vaihinger believed as-If thinking was
> foundational for
>
> scientific reasoning.
>
> Ingrid makes a further distinction
> between static
>
> nondevelopmental and dynamic/developmental accounts
> of as-
> IF. "BEING as-if" is static, whereas
> "BEING-AS-IF-COULD-
> BE" is dynamic. She points out this is similar to
> Bretherton's
> distinction of AS-IF and WHAT-IF. In dynamic
> notions, the as-IF
> is a step in the process of forward oriented
> preadaptation to
> the next MOMENTARY context. Development is based on
> as-IF types
> of apperception as each person participates in their own
> development. Rather than being MORE adaptive or
> BETTER Ingrid's
> position is that developmental transformations cannot be
> prejudged before the act. Whether it is better or
> worse is an
> evaluative question.
>
> In summary imagination always begins in
> the known world of
>
> present and past and then one's horizon of
> understanding is
> stretched into the realm of the as-IF.. Ingrid
> points out this
> notion of as-IF is close to Cole's [1992, 1995]
> notions of
> personal duration. Ingrid states, "In imagination,
> not only do
> present, past, and future become MUTUALLY RELATED (and
> constructed), but both the person and world are
> transformed." p.184
>
> Now to the more specific topic of
> SYMBOLIC PLAY that is
>
> being explored on this thread. Piaget understood
> play as pure
> assimilation that is necessary until developmentally
> the child
> can transcend this immature level of reality and with
> development SUBORDINATE the as-IF reality by the
> rational
> logical, and DECENTERED modes of entering reality.
> The as-
> If is not ascribed any PRODUCTIVE future oriented
> function in
> development. In contrast the position Ingrid (and Cole,
> Vygotsky, Mead,) are elaborating is that the
> AS-IF-COULD-BE
> operates throughout the lifespan.
>
> [Note] I'm emailing this section because
> my software
>
> sometimes crashes
>
> Larry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wagner Luiz Schmit
> <mcfion@gmail.com <mailto:mcfion@gmail.com>>
> Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010 8:11 pm
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Play and the Owl
> of Minerva
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>
> I even didn't had time to read all
> e-mails (lots and lots
>
> of work to
>
> do), but games and development is
> exactly what i want to
>
> study in my
>
> doctorship.
>
> Do you heard about narratology
> David? this was used to
>
> study and analisegames for a while, and them other
> thing called
> ludology emerged...
>
> Take a look at this article:
>
> LUDOLOGY MEETS NARRATOLOGY:
> Similitude and differences between
> (video)games and narrative.
>
> http://www.ludology.org/articles/ludology.htm
>
> this is my two cents contribution to
> the discussion... and
>
> i'm very very
>
> interested too in this
> rational/irrational discussion
>
> too... but i don't
>
> have much to contribute now... Only
> that William James
>
> already was
>
> debating this =P (being a teacher of
> history of Psychology
>
> is very
>
> usefull)
>
> Wagner Luiz Schmit
> INESUL - Brazil
>
> Em Ter, 2010-03-16 às 18:13 -0700,
> David Kellogg escreveu:
>
> Sorry, everybody!
>
> I wrote:
>
> One of my grads tried to
> find the point at which a
>
> story definitively passes over into
> a game, and I said it
>
> was a little like trying to find the point where talk
> definitively passes over into talk. It is there, but
> we always
> find texts in talk, and talk in texts, no matter
> which side of
> the divide we may find ourselves on.
>
> I meant to write "it's a little
> like trying to find the
>
> point
>
> where talk passes over into TEXT".
> Halliday remarks
>
> somewhere that scientific linguistics didn't really
> start until
> the invention of the tape recorder.
>
> I was always puzzled by that
> remark until I realized that
>
> until the invention of the tape
> recorder, TEXT was
>
> synonymous with writing and TALK was synonymous with
> speech, and
> only people like Bakhtin and Vygotsky knew that
> there was a much
> deeper, underlying difference having to do with
> pastness and
> presentness, finalizeability and unfinalizedness.
>
> (When we look at Piaget's work
> on conservation it is quite
>
> a
>
> while before we realize how
> dependent on VISUALS it is. For
>
> the child, sound is not conserved at all, and of
> course neither
> is time. It is only with the discovery of language
> that the
> child can imagine the conservation of sound at all.)
>
> I think that the distinction
> between text and discourse is
>
> really the fast moving line between
> stories and games that
>
> we want: the story is past and the game is present,
> the story is
> finalizedness and the game is unfinalized and inherently
> unpredictable. So the story is a text, and the game
> is an
> ongoing discourse.
>
> I think, Andy, that in a game
> the problem is not autnomy
>
> per
>
> se. It's autonomy for a purpose, and
> purposes are almost by
>
> definition not only beyond the self but even beyond
> the present
> moment (and this is why Mike is so right to point
> out that EVERY
> act of culture or even private imagination has an
> implicit
> notion of "the good life" in it).
>
> Similarly, I don't think
> Vygotsky ever prizes volition for
>
> its
>
> own sake; it's always the freedom to
> produce and to create
>
> and to imagine "the good life" and to master the
> irrational
> forces which deprive life of that meaning, including
> those found
> within the self. It is in that sense that, yes, life
> is a game:
> it is meaningful through and through and to the very
> end. Not, I
> think, what the existentialists had in mind!
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of
> Education
>
>
>
> Wittgenstein claimed that there
> is no overt over-arching
>
> and external trait between games
> (e.g. a common functional
>
> "motive" or a "goal"). When we read Vygotsky's play
> lectures, we
> find TWO common points: viz. gratuitous difficulty
> and guile-
>
> less deceit, the abstract rule and
> the imaginary situation.
>
> But one is always hidden
> when the other is abroad.
>
> After all, Wittgenstein's argument
> was only that there is
>
> no CLEARLY VISIBLE over-arching trait. And
> Vygotsky's reply is
> that if the essence of things were visible on the
> surface, as
> overt motive, or aim, or goal, why then no scientific
> explanation would ever be required for anything. His
> explanation
> of play is not an empiricist-functionalist but a
> historical,
> genetically, deterministic one, and the owl of
> Minerva flies
> only at nightfall.
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of
> Education
> --- On *Mon, 3/15/10, Andy
> Blunden
>
> /<ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>/*
>
> wrote:> >
>
> From: Andy Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Dialects of
>
> Development- Sameroff
>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,
>
> Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>
> Date: Monday, March 15,
> 2010, 5:33 PM
>
> Way out of my depth in
> discussing
>
> play, but here is my take
>
> on "what is the motivation
> for play?"
>
> I don't think we can or want to
>
> ascribe a motivation for
>
> participating in play *in
> general*.
>
> I.e., the question of
>
> "why does a child play?" cannot
>
> sensibly be answered by the
>
> child. But this still
> leaves the
>
> question of the motivation
>
> for any particular play
> activity:
>
> what is it that is
>
> motivating a child when
> they play?
>
> It seems to me that every
> action a
>
> child takes can be
>
> explicable in terms of its
> being
>
> part of a project, and the
>
> "Why are you doing that?"
> question
>
> gets the same kind of
>
> answer as it would for an
> adult at work.
>
> A different kind of
> explanation is
>
> required for why a child
>
> is drawn to participate in
> what is
>
> after all an "imaginary"
>
> project, then gun does not fire
>
> bullets, the money is not
>
> coin of the realm, etc. I
> think in
>
> answering the question at
>
> that level we look at
> problems the
>
> child faces in being
>
> exlcuded from the real
> world and
>
> their attempts to overcome
>
> that. I don't know. But
> from the
>
> beginning a child it trying
>
> to extricate themselves
> from the
>
> trap of childishness.
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
> Your helixes/helices seemed
>
> appropriate to the discussion, Martin.
>
> XXX-history is cultural-
>
> historical genesis. And, as Steve
> suggested,
>
> the twisted rope of many
>
> strands may be at the end of the
> rainbow of
>
> promises.
>
> I have been pondering David
>
> Ke's question about the
>
> object/objective/motivation
>
> for play. It came together in my
>
> thinking with
>
> Yrjo's metaphor of being
>
> always "just over the horizon" and
> its dual
>
> material and ideal nature,
>
> most recently mentioned by
>
> Wolf-Michael. Might it
>
> be the dream of being
>
> coordinated with a world entirely
>
> consistent with
>
> one's own dreams? A world,
>
> extending, as Leslie White put it,
>
> that extends
>
> from infinity to infinity,
>
> in both directions?
>
> probably not, just
> wondering.
> mike
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:55
>
> PM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu
> <mailto:packer@duq.edu>
>
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=packer@duq.edu>>
> wrote:
>
> Larry,
>
> I didn't mean to detract
>
> from the discussion with my playful
>
> helices. I
>
> haven't found time
> yet to
>
> read Sameroff's article, so I don't
>
> know if he is
>
> proposing that there
> is an
>
> antimony between nature and nurture
>
> in human
>
> development, or in our
>
> *conceptions* of development. I took
> Mike
>
> to be
>
> suggesting, in his
> recent
>
> message, that when we pay attention to
>
> culture we
>
> can transcend that
>
> antimony, since culture is a 'second
> nature' that
>
> provides nurture,
> and since
>
> culture is the medium in which human
>
> brains and
>
> bodies grow, and
> since all
>
> nurture offered to the growing child
>
> is mediated
>
> by culture, and since
>
> culture has been transforming human
> nature
>
> throughout
>
> anthropogenesis
> through its
>
> selective evolutionary pressures.
>
> Eric, yes, I should have
>
> added phylogenesis, not just biological
>
> evolution.
>
> What then is the "XX-
>
> genesis" term for history?
>
> Martin
>
> On Mar 14, 2010, at 9:55
>
> PM, Larry Purss wrote:
>
> It seems the
> double or
>
> triple helix is a significant way of
>
> trying to
>
> configure dynamic
>
> processes. However, what the particular
>
> specific double
>
> helix referred to in the
>
> article is pointing to is a very
>
> specific tension
>
> BETWEEN two specific
>
> constructs "Nature" and "nurture". The
>
> current debates
>
> raging about
> neuroscience
>
> on the one side and the tension with
>
> relational
>
> notions of
> development on
>
> the other hand (ie the
>
> self-other-
>
> object/representation triangle)
> suggest a dialectical
>
> tension
>
> which the article
> says may
>
> be INHERENT to development. To me
>
> this is asking
>
> a question about how the
>
> mind constructs significant social
>
> representations.
>
> What is specific
>
> about this particular double helix
> is the
>
> HISTORICAL
>
> salience of this
> SPECIFIC
>
> ANTIMONY through centuries of dialogue
>
> and theory.
>
> My question is "Is there
>
> significance to the extended duration
>
> of this
>
> specific antimony
> through
>
> centuries. Does this historical
>
> engagement with
>
> the specific notions of
>
> nature and nurture have relevance
> for CHAT
>
> discussions. This is
>
> not to say other double or triple helix
>
> models may not
>
> have more
> explanatory power
>
> but that is not the specific
>
> question asked in
>
> the article. The
> question
>
> being asked specifically is if this
>
> specific
>
> nature/nurture
> antinomy is
>
> inherent to the notion of
>
> development? Other
>
> double or triple helix's
>
> could be conceptualized within the
>
> nature/nurture
>
> antinomy but the
> question I
>
> believe is being asked is how relevant a
>
> dialectical (or
>
> alternatively dialogically)
> nature/nurture
>
> antinomy is to
>
> our primary
> (ontological??)
>
> notions of Development as a social
>
> representation.
>
> When I read the
> article,
>
> it seemed to capture the tension we are
>
> exploring about the
> place
>
> of neuroscience in our theories of
>
> development.
>
> For some scholars
> one side
>
> or the other side is in ascendence and
>
> historically one side or
>
> the other is in ascendence. What the
>
> article is
>
> asking is if we must
>
> "INTEGRATE" what is often seen as in
>
> opposition and
>
> realize
> nature/nurture is
>
> in a figure/ground type of relational
>
> pattern
>
> (like the ying/yang
> visual
>
> representation) and the movement
>
> BETWEEN the two
>
> positions is basic to
>
> development.> > >>> Do others
>
> have thoughts on the specific question Arnie has
>
> asked in his
>
> article about the
>
> historical dynamic of the nature/nurture
>
> antinomy in
>
> developmental
> theories as
>
> well as in ontological and cultural
>
> historical
>
> development. This
> question
>
> speaks to me about the possible
>
> relevance of
>
> Moscovici's theory of
>
> social representations.
>
> One alternative
> answer is
>
> to generate other double or triple
>
> helix models
>
> which may become social
>
> representations over time as they are
>
> debated in a
>
> community of inquiry but
>
> the article as written is pointing to a
>
> very
>
> salient social
>
> representation within our Western
> tradition. Does
>
> that
>
> recognition of its
>
> historical roots change how we view this
>
> particular
>
> antinomy?
>
> Larry
>
> ----- Original
> Message ----
>
> -
>
> From: Martin Packer
>
> <packer@duq.edu
> <mailto:packer@duq.edu>> >
>
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=packer@duq.edu>>>
> >
>
> Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010 4:59 pm
>
> Subject: Re: [xmca]
>
> Dialects of Development- Sameroff
>
> To: "eXtended Mind,
>
> Culture, Activity"
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>
> >>>
>
> That's
> right, Steve,
>
> though I'm pretty sure I didn't see this
>
> title until
> after I made
>
> the diagram. And of course Lewontin is
>
> referring to
> different
>
> factors. And, also, of course, collagen
>
> actually
> does have a
>
> triple-helix structure, which
> Francis Crick
>
> thought was more
>
> interesting than the double helix of
> DNA, but
>
> which got
> very little
>
> attention.> > >>>>
>
> Martin
>
>
> On Mar 14,
> 2010, at 7:53
>
> PM, Steve Gabosch wrote:
>
> On the
> triple helix
>
> metaphor: Richard Lewontin used it
>
> in the title
> of his
>
> 1998/2000 collection of essays _The
> Triple
>
> Helix: Gene,
> Organism and
>
> Environment_. His core theme
>
> regarding
> biological
>
> development is that solely
> considering the
>
> interaction
> between gene
>
> and organism makes for bad
>
> biology. The
>
> environment has decisive influence
> as well.
>
> - Steve
>
>
> On Mar
> 14, 2010, at
>
> 10:20 AM, Martin Packer wrote:
>
> On
> Mar
> 14,
> 2010, at
>
> 1:04 PM, Larry Purss wrote:
>
> What
> do
> others
> think
>
> of the double helix (and/or the other
>
> visual
> images in the
>
> article). How central is the double
> helix
>
> (either as
> an "is Like"
>
> or "IS" objectification) to your notions
>
> of the human
> sciences?
>
> Larry
>
> ...and
> I am
> pretty
> sure
>
> I stole, I mean appropriated, this
>
> from
> someone; I've
>
> forgotten who...
>
> <PastedGraphic-2.pdf>
>
> _______________________________________________>
>
> xmca
> mailing list
>
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >
>
> >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________>
>
> xmca mailing
> list
>
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >
>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________>
>
> xmca mailing list
>
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >
>
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________>
>
> xmca mailing list
>
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >
>
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________>
>
> xmca mailing list
>
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >
>
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________>
>
> xmca mailing list
>
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >
>
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> -- ----------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity
> Theory: Hegel,
>
> Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>
>
> _______________________________________________>
>
> xmca mailing list
>
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >
>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----
>
> ------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory:
> Hegel, Leontyev,
>
> Meshcheryakov,
>
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> any
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------
>
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
> Meshcheryakov,
>
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
> -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> +61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
> http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
>
>
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ +61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca