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Re: [xmca] conservation

Well Michael, I agree with Martin and even though I never liked these terms of Vygotsky's "inter- and intra-psychological," I think it is quite wrong to conclude from the use of them that LSV was a dualist. 

But what do we mean by "dualist"? Really?
As I see it, Vygotsky was concerned with modes of human functioning, and functioning is essentially functioning with other people using artefacts, even when, say, learning to walk, for example, seems to be stretching the point. But to recognize that human functioning essentially involves processes of consciousness, interactions with other people and artefacts (including the human body), is not to divide with world into 2 or even 3 realms. Each mediates and constitutes the other two and nothing in human life is conceivable that does not entail all three. 

Yes?

Andy

Michael Glassman wrote:

Hi Martin,
I'm not sure what you mean. I think the idea of organizing principles being inside the head (appropriated through the culture for sure) runs through Vygotsky. I suppose James Wertsch has the best summation of this, quoting from Chapter 6 in Vygotsky and the Social Formation of Mind. "According to Vygotsky's general genetic law of cultural development, all higher mental functions appear first on the interpsychological plane and then on the intrapsychological plane. This claim is central to Vygotsky's approach but the processes it entails have not been examined in any great detail. Vygotsky was most specific about it in connection with his account of egocentric and inner speech where he analyzed the forms of semiotic mediation that make possible the transition from interpsychological to intrapsychological functioning. In that analysis, however, he focused almost exclusively on the latter." (emphasis mine). Sorry for any mistakes, I transcribed this from another page and my short term memory is possible. But I agree with Wertsch here, there are intrapsychological functionings, and once you posit intrapsychological functionings, especially in terms of mediation (which I would say in its essence is an organizing principle) that there is pretty much no way you can escape some form of dualism. Wertsch goes on to talk about the relationship between say the adult and the child with the child thinking differently about the situation than the adult. What allows for development I guess is intersubjectivity, but intersubjectivity does not mean that there is no dualism - partly because it does not seem to be a natural state but a negotiation - and once the child has appropriated what is important from the situation will move to the next situation with important mediating principles on the intrapsychological plane. I'm actually not sure how you make the argument that Vygotsky was not dealing with dualism, the idea of individual development (even if socially driven) seems to me to be too important to him. Michael 
________________________________

From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Martin Packer
Sent: Sat 2/27/2010 10:18 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] conservation



Can you give some textual evidence for this statement, Michael?

Martin


On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Michael Glassman wrote:


Martin, David, Jorge, all

.But
these organizational structures are definitely inside of the head for
Vygotsky so there really is no way for him to escape dualism.




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Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov $20 ea 

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