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RE: [xmca] "overimitation" ref



emulate = copy omitting what doesn't effect the outcome;
imitate = copy all, whether or not it effects the outcome; 
(overimitate = copy all, even when the non-utilitarian nature of some step
is flagged wildly)

Our babies and the chimpanzees emulate no matter what; our 3 year olds
emulate when copying a cruddy videotape but they imitate a live
demonstration; our 5 year olds imitate no matter what.
How widespread is the "our" -- are there cultural differences? are there
social practice differences?
  
Hmmmm, how familiar that parallelogram data pattern is... (standing still
while playing guard vs. standing still outside of play situation?)
 

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Steve Gabosch
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:19 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref

Thank you for all these, Peg.  This is implied in the abstracts, but to make
sure I grasp it, would you clarify the difference between emulation and
imitation?
Thanks,
- Steve


On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:50 AM, Peg Griffin wrote:

> I sent these articles and abstracts to you earlier, Mike; and I am not 
> sure if they have they entered this discussion yet.  Apologies if they 
> are repetitive or off topic Comparing babies, toddlers and 
> preschoolers -- seems pre-schoolers is more than just an opaque 
> expression!
> Have the older children learned the "over-imitation" in certain social 
> interactions in certain cultures or is this age effect more general?
>
> Emulation and "overemulation" in the social learning of causally 
> opaque versus causally transparent tool use by 23- and 30-month-olds. 
> Nicola McGuigan and Andrew Whiten  Journal of Experimental Child 
> Psychology Volume 104, Issue 4, December 2009, Pages 367-381
> Abstract: We explored whether a rising trend to blindly "overcopy" a 
> model's causally irrelevant actions between 3 and 5 years of age, 
> found in previous studies, predicts a more circumspect disposition in 
> much younger children.
> Children between 23 and 30 months of age observed a model use a tool 
> to retrieve a reward from either a transparent or opaque puzzle box.
> Some of
> the tool actions were irrelevant to reward retrieval, whereas others 
> were causally necessary. The causal relevance of the tool actions was 
> highly visible in the transparent box condition, allowing the 
> participants to potentially discriminate which actions were necessary. 
> In contrast, the causal efficacy of the tool was hidden in the opaque 
> box condition.
> When
> both the 23- and 30-month-olds were presented with either the 
> transparent or opaque box, they were most commonly emulative rather 
> than imitative, performing only the causally necessary actions. This 
> strategy contrasts with the blanket imitation of both causally 
> irrelevant and causally relevant actions witnessed at 3 and 5 years of 
> age in our previous studies. The results challenge a current view of 
> 1- and 2-year-olds as largely "blind imitators"; instead, they show 
> that these young children have a variety of social learning processes 
> available to them. More broadly the emerging patterns of results 
> suggest, rather counterintuitively, that the human species becomes 
> more imitative rather than less imitative with age, in some ways 
> "mindlessly" so.
>
> Imitation of causally opaque versus causally transparent tool use by
> 3- and
> 5-year-old children. Cognitive Development, Volume 22, Issue 3, 
> July-September 2007, Pages 353-364. Nicola McGuigan, Andrew Whiten, 
> Emma Flynn, Victoria Horner
> Abstract: We investigated whether the tendency to imitate or emulate 
> is influenced by the availability of causal information, and the 
> amount of information available in a display. Three and 5-year-old 
> children were shown by either a live or video model how to obtain a 
> reward from either a clear or an opaque puzzle box. Some of the 
> actions in the sequence were causally relevant to retrieving the 
> reward, whereas others were irrelevant.
> The clear
> box made the causally irrelevant actions visible, whereas the opaque 
> box prevented them from being seen. Results indicated that both 3- and 
> 5-year-old children imitated the irrelevant actions regardless of the 
> availability of causal information following a live demonstration. In 
> contrast, the 3-year-olds employed an emulative approach, omitting 
> irrelevant actions, when the information available was degraded in a 
> video demonstration. However, the 5-year-olds were unaffected by the 
> degraded information and employed an imitative approach. We suggest 
> that imitation develops to be such an adaptive human strategy that it 
> may often be employed at the expense of task efficiency.
>
> Emulation, imitation, overimitation and the scope of culture for child 
> and chimpanzee. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, B 
> (2009)
> Volume: 364. A Whiten, N Mcguigan, S Marshall-pescini, L M Hopper 
> Selective imitation in child and chimpanzee: A window on the construal 
> of others' actions. In S. Hurley & N. Chater (Eds.), Perspectives on
> imitation:
> A Whiten, V Horner, S Marshall-pescini From (2005)
>
> Peg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca- 
> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:06 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
>
> I think Sasha's idea is perfectly plausible.
> So who out there can run the experiment??
> "-)
> mike
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Alexander Surmava (Sasha) sent me some keen observations on the 
>> plastic box experiment and predicts that if a child was left alone 
>> with the clear plastic box and their candy prizes long without adult 
>> observation, the child would go the road of the chimps and discard 
>> the unnecessary moves.  This suggests an interesting extension of 
>> this experiment which could offer additional insight into the social 
>> nature of over-imitation that Rod and Mike are discussing.
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 7, 2010, at 7:23 AM, mike cole wrote:
>>
>> I agree with your analysis, Rod. The application of "over" to this 
>> form of
>>> imitation obscures the sources of reward for the children in 
>>> imitating adults. I was trying to indicate that this phenomenon fits 
>>> well the idea of the special role of social others in earliest 
>>> infancy evidenced as part of mutual imitation.
>>>
>>> I know what you mean about the problems of working time and a half 
>>> while engaging in these discussions. No one can read and respond to
>>> everything-- almost certainly no one wants to! But the presence of a 
>>> diverse and changing group of "chatters," while frustrating at 
>>> times, is also a source of dependably helpful, if often unexpected, 
>>> insight and enrichment of what do in our "paid for" lives.
>>>
>>> Our in again out again discussion of the special qualities of human 
>>> sociality and its development being a case in point.
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 4:19 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < 
>>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What I meant was that these studies appear to be based on the 
>>>> premise that the 'rational' thing to do (in order to obtain the 
>>>> reward - sweet or sticker
>>>> - efficiently) is X so if the child does X+, the + is surplus or 
>>>> redundant (overimitation has different connotations from, for 
>>>> example, 'superimitation'). Part of the problem with this, I think, 
>>>> is that it doesn't sufficiently acknowledge the fact that, for 
>>>> children, the 'reward'
>>>> may be as much, or more, to do with the social interaction as the 
>>>> simple getting of stuff.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And this reminds me of a delightful piece of research which showed 
>>>> that doctors were more likely to diagnose an unusual combination of 
>>>> symptoms if the patient presented them with a small bag of sweets 
>>>> as they entered the consulting room - gift giving has powerful 
>>>> social implications!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519661.200-a-spoonful-of-
>>>> sug
>>>> ar-helps-the-doctor-feel-good.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I need to work out a way of keeping up with all the good stuff here 
>>>> while also managing a more than full time job - at the moment I am 
>>>> still working with habits developed elsewhere (e.g. it is rude not 
>>>> to answer a long and detailed reply to a posting, it is rude to hog 
>>>> the converstion etc.) and my dugout sometimes feels more like a 
>>>> worryingly unstable log!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
>>>> *Sent:* 06 February 2010 21:11
>>>> *To:* Rod Parker-Rees
>>>> *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rod-- you write: children do what adults do before they know WHY 
>>>> adults do it.
>>>>
>>>> Precisely. I did not take the "over" part of overimitation to imply 
>>>> that the kids were doing it just "for the reward." I think it 
>>>> possible to interpret it, rather, as derivative of the kinds of 
>>>> mutual imitation seen in earliest infancy.
>>>>
>>>> Deb Downing found the Premack and Premack chapter, clever lady, by 
>>>> seeking it as follows:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://books.google.com/books? 
>>>> id=g_hMIz7LN18C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=
>>>> Why+animals+lack+pedagogy+and+some+cultures+have+more+of+it+than
>>>> +oth
>>>> ers+/+David+Premack,+Ann+James
>>>> +Premack&source=bl&ots=HvZEFPfY33&sig=
>>>> c7kCqQqX_mNOzEWvWyhBWxyynYw
>>>> &hl=en&ei=RcdtS8bKJI7UsgPboemxDQ&sa=X&oi=
>>>> book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v
>>>> =onepage&q=Why%20animals%20lack%20pedagogy%20and%20some%20cultures
>>>> %2
>>>> 0have%20more%20of%20it%20than%20others%20%2F%20David%20Premack%2C
>>>> %20
>>>> Ann%20James%20Premack&f=false
>>>>
>>>> This chapter has a pretty detailed discussion of the uniqueness of 
>>>> deliberate instruction (pedagogy) to humans. I was after this 
>>>> chapter particularly because of a related claim the Premacks make:
>>>> that aesthetic sensibility is unique to humans. Another, related, 
>>>> topic for another message.
>>>>
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < 
>>>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Interesting that we describe what children do with these trick 
>>>> boxes as 'overimitation' as if the sole purpose of imitation were 
>>>> just to get a reward. As the first of the youtube videos points 
>>>> out, children, unlike other apes, have learned to expect adults to 
>>>> adjust what they do to fit the child's interests (this pedagogical 
>>>> orientation seems to be uniquely human, though I remember seeing a 
>>>> film of meerkats apparently 'scaffolding'
>>>> digging
>>>> out food, setting up young to finish off the job). Given this 
>>>> expectation, and in the social context of interaction with an 
>>>> unfamiliar adult, it is not surprising that children should 'be on 
>>>> their best behaviour' or 'hypervigilant' in their efforts to go 
>>>> along with a stranger's funny ways.
>>>> It would be interesting to see if similar results would be obtained 
>>>> if the set up was conducted by a familiar adult in familiar 
>>>> surroundings (and with familiar gear).
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that overimitation would be a necessary feature of 
>>>> Vygotsky's model of internalisation of social activity - children 
>>>> do what adults do before they know WHY adults do it (and indeed we 
>>>> all do many things without necessarily being absolutely clear about 
>>>> why we do them, other than that people might be offended if we 
>>>> didn't).
>>>> In many cases adults will insist on overimitation - say 'please', 
>>>> say grace before a meal, brush your teeth before you go to bed etc.
>>>> etc.. One of my personal horrors is 'communication training' for 
>>>> children with learning difficulties - involving insistence that the 
>>>> child presents a token before a reward is handed over, even though 
>>>> child and adult both know that the adult already knows exactly what 
>>>> the child wants).
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> Rod
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On 
>>>> Behalf Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: 06 February 2010 18:47
>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good addition to the paper. Probably same experimenters.
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Two more videos on overimitation, a black box/clear box experiment 
>>>> that
>>>>> shows children are more likely to overimitate than chimps.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHuagL7x5Wc&feature=related
>>>>>
>>>>> - Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:46 AM, mike cole wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Found it:
>>>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2007/11/27/0704452104.DC1
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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