Re: [xmca] Human spark TV show: when did the sparks begin?

[Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>]

Very well said, Deb!  Thank you.

And one could add more questions to this pile: what kind of human  
social organization does it take to not only to create the ability to  
create the tools and plan the hunting (and gathering, and preparations  
of many kinds of food, keep the fires, create the clothing and shelter  
and other essentials, care for the young, the ill, and the old, etc.  
etc.) - but also share these resources in such a way that entire  
cultures and peoples could continuously do these amazing things for  
hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years?

~ Steve


On Jan 28, 2010, at 4:44 PM, Deborah Rockstroh wrote:

> Hi Steve, Phil and all,
> (apologies that my response is back in the middle of the thread, it  
> has
> taken a while to put into words but I hope it makes sense, and  
> welcome your
> thoughts):
>
> In episode 1 of the series, Alan Alda makes the comment that because  
> 'we
> continue to exist today', modern humans are superior to  
> Neanderthals. So
> along similar lines, indigenous Australians who were recently  
> identified as
> being the longest continuous cultural group to inhabit one place (up  
> to
> 60,000 years in the desert according to scientific analysis), can be  
> thought
> of as superior in the way they organised and balanced their social,
> technical and environmental relationships. There is much that the  
> recent
> colonisers could learn from these relationships - particularly in  
> light of
> the rhetorical concern for 'climate change' and 'sustainability' -  
> but to a
> technological society that advanced by consuming, accumulating and
> exploiting resources, such values are not acknowledged as worthwhile
> pursuits.
>
> It is along these lines I question that Neanderthals were different or
> inferior based on their tools not progressing as far or as fast as
> technological development has for modern humans - as these are  
> measurements
> valued by the measurers, who live in a society that holds progress and
> complex technological developments as something to aspire towards, as
> 'advanced'. Likewise, if Neanderthals possessed another form of the  
> 'spark',
> perhaps it is just that homo sapiens were driven to harness it due  
> to the
> new possibilities they had seen from their journeys. Possibilities  
> that once
> accessed, would enable them to dominate, accumulate and exploit  
> resources
> even further. An aspect of (greed? in) the human spark that  
> continues to
> drive modern humans to search for possible resources in other lands  
> (eg
> Iraq), outer space and the ocean depths.
>
> Rather than delineating between Neanderthals and modern humans, I  
> see the
> spark as differentiating both Neanderthal and homo sapiens from other
> animals, but not from each other. Although other animals make and  
> use tools,
> they do so from biologically innate and/or imitated learning;  
> whereas it
> appears that Neanderthals cultivated and perfected the tool similar  
> to homo
> sapiens, both across generations and through successive generations  
> as a
> shared and cumulative process (as per Tomasello's "ratcheting"). To  
> think
> stone tool making is simple or innate underestimates the precision  
> required,
> and the fundamentally cultural nature of this development; the  
> knowledge and
> skills required to select the right type of rock, strike it  
> repeatedly with
> another harder rock in exactly the right way until the tool forms the
> utilitarian shape, then know how to use it to (kill and) carve up a  
> wild
> beast to sustain the group. It also requires a social order that  
> allows and
> supports the tool maker while crafting the tool, recognising the  
> time spent
> for testing, selecting optimal processes will be justified by means- 
> ends
> returns; that it will be used in future hunting events - itself a  
> complex
> social activity that to be successful, requires highly developed  
> forms of
> organisation and communication. It would be a challenge for anyone  
> (or a
> group) of us to walk out into the open and emulate this successfully  
> before
> starvation set in, even with our modern knowledge that such tools/ 
> weapons
> can be made from stones.
>
> Deb
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca- 
> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Phil Chappell
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2010 8:54 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Human spark TV show: when did the sparks begin?
>
> Geoffrey Blainey's 'Triumph of the Nomads - A History of Aboriginal
> Australia' suggests just that, Steve and is also a fascinating read   
> for
> those interested in learning how humans  conquered their environment  
> through
> creative tool use and ongoing technological developments a long time  
> before
> the 30 k dot on in history.It was the recent colonisation movement  
> that,
> sadly, led to the demise of that superior way of life.
>
> And to think the nation celebrated Australia Day once again with the  
> union
> jack splashed around in all its glory.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 27, 2010, at 08:25AM, "Steve Gabosch"
> <stevegabosch@me.com> wrote:
> > There is little doubt that humans began to set the world aflame when
> > they migrated to all its corners 30K+ years ago, and things have been
> > changing rapidly since, relatively speaking.  Quite the wave of  
> > sparks
> > and consequent flames.  And quite the range of "genius" and
> > "stupidity" seems to have accompanied these new powers.  But here is
> > the question:  was 30 kya really the "debut," as the PBS intro says,
> > of human sparking?  Or did it begin much earlier - millions of years
> > earlier?
> >
> > - Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 26, 2010, at 4:56 AM, David H Kirshner wrote:
> >
> > > Steve,
> > > I didn't see much of the series, but one part I did see had to do  
> > > with
> > > stone tool-making of a hominid cousin--I think Neanderthal. The
> > > comment
> > > was that over thousands of years the technology of making this stone
> > > tool did not progress an iota. So the fact of (somehow ???)  
> > > inventing
> > > the technology was a spark of genius, the spark didn't quite kindle
> > > into
> > > flame at that phylogenetic period.
> > > David
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu 
> > > ]
> > > On Behalf Of Steve Gabosch
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:30 AM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Human spark TV show: when did the sparks begin?
> > >
> > > Mike's comment about "many sparks," and that nicely made PBS show  
> > > now
> > > available online in at least 2 of the 3 episodes about "The Human
> > > Spark -The Nature of Human Uniqueness", has gotten me thinking  
> > > about a
> > > line of questioning that has been on my mind for some time, and  
> > > which
> > > I'll pose in terms of the spark metaphor.
> > >
> > > An online introduction to the series suggests that the human spark  
> > > may
> > > be only 30K years old.
> > >
> > > from:
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/humanspark/about/about-the-series-introduction/3
> > > 5/
> > >
> > > "In the first program, Alda witnesses the dazzling (apparent)  
> > > debut of
> > > the Human Spark in the spectacular 30,000 year-old artwork carved  
> > > and
> > > painted on the walls of caves in France ..."
> > >
> > > My question is: didn't the Neandertal peoples also possess some of  
> > > the
> > > 'human spark'?  And how about our many other human cousins - didn't
> > > humanity begin to 'spark' its way out of the animal world millions  
> > > of
> > > years ago?
> > >
> > > Surely, migrating all over the planet 50K or more years ago, and the
> > > development all the new technologies associated with that period -
> > > sometimes dubbed the "Great Leap Forward" - (barbed hooks, traps,  
> > > wall
> > > paintings, etc. etc. etc.) - involved a new and dramatic wave of
> > > sparks.  And yes, from available evidence, modern humans, homo  
> > > sapiens
> > > sapiens, appear to be no more than about 200K years old (all dating
> > > mentioned here is very rough, of course).
> > >
> > > But what about other human (humanoid?) accomplishments - durable
> > > production tools such as stone axes, fire, and so forth?  Those were
> > > results and causes of human sparks, too - yes?
> > >
> > > - Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:42 PM, mike cole wrote:
> > >
> > > > Larry---
> > > >
> > > > Could we start to think in this way: elements of what created homo
> > > > sapiens
> > > > sapiens was not a single spark. it was, under very special
> > > > environmental
> > > > circumstances, perhaps involving also a mutation of some part of  
> > > > the
> > > > genome
> > > > simulataneously, the coordination of many sparks at one time and
> > > > place?
> > > >
> > > > Compression of different humanoid populations in Northern Europe
> > > > during ice age circa 50k years ago give or take several k years?
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca>  
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi everyone
> > > > > I posted this thought earlier and addressed it to Mabel by  
> > > > > accident.
> > > > > I thought I had lost it to the great unknown.
> > > > > So here is my question directed through Mabel's response.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Mabel Encinas <liliamabel@hotmail.com>
> > > > > Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010 2:04 pm
> > > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Human spark TV show
> > > > > To: Larry <lpurss@shaw.ca>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi, Larry.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before saying anything... did you mean to send this note to xmca?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mabel
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:06:30 -0800
> > > > > > From: lpurss@shaw.ca
> > > > > > Subject: Re: RE: [xmca] Human spark TV show
> > > > > > To: liliamabel@hotmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are welcome Mabel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a question about theoretically trying to connect the dots
> > > > > > around a theme of  "theory of mind" referred to in the
> > > > > > Human Spark and the notions of development.
> > > > > > The show pointed out that chimps have awareness of their own
> > > > > > perspective and may have limited capacity to "understand"
> > > > > > anothers intentionality. However humans have the "capacity" or
> > > > > > "potential" to hold up to 5 levels or perspectives of
> > > > > > intentionality of mind.
> > > > > > From a developmental perspective of "emergence" the theme that
> > > > > > this seems to point to being able to hold multiple perspectives
> > > > > > at the same time in "tension".
> > > > > > Lave's notion of development as being able to take different
> > > > > > "positions" (the structured term is "roles") may be an aspect of
> > > > > > this emergence.
> > > > > > Piaget's notion of de-centering may be pointing to a similar
> > > > > > capacity.
> > > > > > The development of the capacity to "reflect" or RE-cognize may
> > > > > > also be pointing in the same area.
> > > > > > Bhaktin's notion of multivoicedness may be another perspective.
> > > > > > G.H.Mead's and W. James social self  also seem to point to this.
> > > > > > Peirce's notion of "fallibility" or holding the tension of
> > > > > > "uncertainty" may also be implicated.
> > > > > > Do  others on CHAT see a biological component to this
> > > > > > capacity or the alternative is that our cultures are in such
> > > > > > tension with the modern forms of communication that out of this
> > > > > > cultural tension notions such as the above are being constructed
> > > > > > to contain and give meaning to the tension.
> > > > > > What do others think?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > I was curious how others on CHAT
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Mabel Encinas <liliamabel@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 11:12 pm
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Human spark TV show
> > > > > > To: lpurss@shaw.ca
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Larry,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you for the reminder! I saw the other two: very good.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mabel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:19:56 -0800
> > > > > > > > From: lpurss@shaw.ca
> > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > Subject: [xmca] Human spark TV show
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For people on the west coast of America, the 3rd installment
> > > > > > > of "The Human Spark" is on at 8PM Pacific time.
> > > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
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