FW: [xmca] bodies and artifacts

[Mabel Encinas <liliamabel@hotmail.com>]

Thank you, Mike.
Yes, the reduction to dyadic interaction what worries me, but also, I wonder: does practice involve a more 'realistic' understanding of reality?
It is to learn that I am here =)
Mabel


> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:11:03 -0800
> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> To: lpurss@shaw.ca
> CC: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> 
> More later, Larry. I have to complete grading grad papers in history of
> communication course (Mabel-- communication outside of cultural practices
> seems hard to imagine. I think what you are referring to is views of
> communication as dyadic interaction?) There is some great material in on of
> the books I used,*Speaking into the air, * that is all about inbetweeness. I
> have not read a lot of what you mention, but it is one characteristic of
> this discussion group that no one has read everything and knows it, so that
> we are constantly learning from each other (although I confess, the
> erudition of some of our members blows me over.... ditto the author of
> *Speaking
> into the air*).
> 
> more to come from all over, I am sure.
> mike
> 
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 9:04 AM, Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Mike
> > I really appreciate these articles and the process of serendipity once more
> > opens up new "spaces'" to explore. I was just settling down to read Martin
> > Buber's analysis of the construct BETWEENNESS and had a book by Robert
> > Nisbett discussing Vico's perspective on the notion of historical
> > "developmentalism" and "progress" I was thinking of reading. Then you posted
> > the neuroscience article on bottom up and top down processes and my
> > intentions on where to go next became wobbly and topsy-turvy (sp?)
> > However it certainly leaves me wondering and curious.
> >
> > I will post a thought to the neuroscience post but I just want to mention
> > that Fonagy, and Gergely and Target are working in the spaces of
> > BETWEENNESS (the hyphen in the "I -other" dialectic) that seems to be such
> > a fertile place to stand.
> >
> > Mike,
> > I would appreciate if you could expand your way of contrasting
> > Tomasello and Vygotsky with Trevarthan and PRIMARY intersubjectivity. (It
> > may be in your article posted.) This seems to be in my ZPD and seems to be
> > central to my big question.
> > I have been reading various contrasting models of intersubjectivity from
> > Hegel Habermas, to Buber, to Mead, to relational psychoanalysis (many
> > contrasting views) such as Stern, Fonagy, to feminists such as Jessica
> > Benjamin and they all speak to positioning ourselves in the PLACE or SPACE
> > of BETWEENNESS (as an abstract ground) However the devil is in the details
> > or particularity of how we imagine (INTERPRET) THIS METAPHORICAL SPACE.
> > Winnicott's "holding environment" also is a metaphor for this space.
> > This metaphorical image of spaces for me is evocative because it allows us
> > to ask the "ideal" ethical and moral question of how we facilitate,
> > or guide, the MUTUAL co-creation of these "OPENING SPACES" and promote the
> > development of the "inclusive self" (see Jessica Benjamin's "The Bond's of
> > Love")
> > Vygotsky and sociocultural theory seems to me to be the paradigm that
> > speaks most clearly and practically to ways to open spaces in our schools.
> >
> > Finally a quick comment on the constructs of "intentionallity"
> > "anticipation" "evaluation" and "judgement". The metaphor of opening spaces
> > must be always vigilant to mutuality in the relationally constructed open
> > spaces. When successful these open spaces lead to mutual recognition and
> > emotional experiences of "vitality" and "engagement" in encounters and
> > performances. When we unintentionally communicate judgements or evaluations
> > mutuality collapses into "complimentary" asymmetrical patterns which the
> > cultural-critical discourses elaborate. (Buber's "I-it" objectifying stance
> > which collapses "open spaces)
> >
> > Thanks everyone on CHAT who leave me permanently confused (and fascinated)
> >
> > Larry
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009 7:21 am
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > > The book description came through, Larry. Attached is the most
> > > recent Fonagy
> > > article i could find that appeared general. His work looks very
> > > interesting,thanks. I have not read it yet, but that fact that
> > > Gergeley is a co-author
> > > indicates that issues of intentionality are involved and I am
> > > very curious
> > > to see if the effects you talk about are connected with changes
> > > at 9months.
> > > First guess, it would fit with Tomasello and Vygotsky, but if it
> > > fits with
> > > Trevarthan and primary intersubjectivity it will be a suprise.
> > > We'll see.
> > >
> > > A brief paper on this topic I wrote for an audience for whom the
> > > idea that
> > > culture mediates human activity was a novelty, and that there is
> > > a two way
> > > relation between "natural" and "cultural" is also attached.
> > >
> > > thanks a lot for the pointer.
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Larry Purss
> > > <lpurss@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Vera
> > > > I sent an attachment through CHAT but I don't think it went through.
> > > > Fonagy and three other authors wrote the book "Affect regulation,
> > > > Mentalization, and the Development of the Self.
> > > > It is an extension of Bowlby's and Winnicott's approach (He
> > > works at the
> > > > same Tavistock institute in London) and its interweaving with his
> > > > understanding of Hegel and intersubjectivity theory.
> > > > The summary of infant studies from a relational framework is
> > > excellent.> Some of the "clinical" approaches in the second half
> > > of the book may be
> > > > critqued.
> > > > Also I wonder how feminist scholars may critique the focus on
> > > "mothers"?>
> > > > However the detail (though sometimes overwhelming) is systematically
> > > > presented and builds a coherent perspective on the centrality
> > > of relational
> > > > processes to the development of subjectivity.
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Vera Steiner <vygotsky@unm.edu>
> > > > Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:04 pm
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Larry,
> > > > > I would be interested in a link to Fonagy's recent publications.
> > > > > I am
> > > > > related to him and am doubly curious about his work.
> > > > > Thanks, Vera
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Larry Purss" <lpurss@shaw.ca>
> > > > > To: <ablunden@mira.net>; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > > > > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:51 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Andy
> > > > >
> > > > > I believe the reason we are cautious about brain research is it
> > > > > usually
> > > > > implies "biology" as foundational to being human. The
> > > > > reason I mention
> > > > > Fonagy and others exploring the foundational premises of infant
> > > > > development
> > > > > is they are starting from intersubjectivity as prior to
> > > > > subjectivity and it
> > > > > is only within relational contexts that a sense of subjectivity
> > > > > arises or
> > > > > emerges. They are using brain research to support this
> > > > > relational paradigm.
> > > > > Larry
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > > > > Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:28 pm
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Larry,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my first forrays into this discussion on emotion, I found
> > > > > > myself introducing talk of physiological observations in a
> > > > > > way I would never have thought of doing in relation to
> > > > > > cognition. After reading about the 300 years of reflections
> > > > > > on the physiology of emotion in Vygotsky's article, I was
> > > > > > left asking myself: why? Why do I think it is important to
> > > > > > investigate the physiology of emotion, while I hold such a
> > > > > > low opinion of the place of physiological investigations in
> > > > > > understanding the normal process of cognition.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Consciousness is the outcome of the intersection of two
> > > > > > objective processes: human physiology and human behaviour.
> > > > > > This is equally true of both emotion and cognition.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While the marketing, military and medial industries are
> > > > > > spending billions of dollars on neurological investigations,
> > > > > > I would think that CHAT people would be interested in
> > > > > > questions like the role of emotion in learning, behaviour,
> > > > > > addicition, the formation of social bonds, and so on,
> > > > > > investigating such questions with dual stimulation type
> > > > > > experiments, with artifacts that are more or less affect-laden.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Larry Purss wrote:
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > Your comment that this leaves us only at the starting
> > > gate of
> > > > > > understanding how bodies can be "written on" points
> > > to the
> > > > > > research and reflection on the relation of changes in the brain
> > > > > > mediated by culture.
> > > > > > > One area of research that is exploring how the brain is
> > > > > > changed via mediation is intersubjective infant developmental
> > > > > > studies that are mapping physiological changes in one person's
> > > > > > brain that "mirrors" similar physiological brain
> > > > > > changes being generated during the activity of the
> > > > > > other person. Fonagy is doing research in this area
> > > > > > and has written a detailed summary of the research in this area.
> > > > > > His term for this intersubjective process is "mentalization".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009 12:19 pm
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > > > > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> > > >
> > > > > > >> I do not have all this sorted out by a long shot, but
> > > my own
> > > > > > way
> > > > > > >> of thinking
> > > > > > >> about the issue is that humans are hybrids, really complex
> > > > > > >> one's. Their
> > > > > > >> brains have LITERALLY been shaped by prior genrations of
> > > > > > >> mediation of
> > > > > > >> activity through material artifacts, their brains (and often
> > > > > > >> other parts of
> > > > > > >> the bodies) cannot operate normally without inclusion of
> > > > > > >> artifacts, they can
> > > > > > >> be "written on" as jay points out.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The problem is that this leaves us only at the starting gate
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > >> furtherdevelopment of this point of view. I found that
> > > > > > >> experimental study I sent
> > > > > > >> around sort of interest in this regard, even though it
> > > > > > provides
> > > > > > >> such sketchy
> > > > > > >> detail and assumes so much about its cultural content and
> > > > > > >> organization. The
> > > > > > >> developmental implications, which in our current discussion
> > > > > > >> would mean, the
> > > > > > >> organization of hybridity during ontogeny, which in
> > > turn has
> > > > > > >> implicationsfor the cognition/emotion
> > > > > > >> discussion.
> > > > > > >> mike
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Jay Lemke
> > > > > > >> <jaylemke@umich.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>> One of the ways I have found useful to think about the body
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > >> relation to
> > > > > > >>> semiotic mediation is to see the body as, among other
> > > > > > things,
> > > > > > >> a semiotic
> > > > > > >>> artifact.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> What I mean by semiotic artifact is a material object or
> > > > > > >> substrate that can
> > > > > > >>> be written on and read from, much like a printed page
> > > or an
> > > > > > >> architectural> drawing. Written on, in the general semiotic
> > > > > > >> sense, not necessarily in
> > > > > > >>> words, but in signs of some kind: meaningful features that
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > >> be "read" or
> > > > > > >>> made sense of by people (or nonhumans, but that's another
> > > > > > >> story) in that our
> > > > > > >>> meaning-mediated world, and our actions that respond to
> > > > > that world
> > > > > > >>> (including by trying to change or re-create it or just
> > > > > > imagine
> > > > > > >> it in some
> > > > > > >>> new way), are affected by our encounter with the
> > > features of
> > > > > > >> the semiotic
> > > > > > >>> object, according to some community interpretive practices,
> > > > > > >> with our own
> > > > > > >>> individual variations on them.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> At a very obvious level, bodies can be dressed up in signs:
> > > > > > >> hair styles,
> > > > > > >>> tans, cosmetics. And this can be taken to a more
> > > > > > "artifactual"
> > > > > > >> form with
> > > > > > >>> dress, or a more physiological form with, say, body-
> > > > > > building.
> > > > > > >> From tattoos
> > > > > > >>> to ripped abs is a small shift when we are thinking about
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > >> body as a
> > > > > > >>> writable/readable object. If we want to get still more
> > > > > > >> physiological, and
> > > > > > >>> think not only about reading other people's bodies, but
> > > > > > >> reading our own,
> > > > > > >>> then the proprioceptive feelings we sense within out bodies
> > > > > > >> can be
> > > > > > >>> considered signs as well, whether exhilaration or nausea,
> > > > > > >> strength or
> > > > > > >>> weakness, etc. The meaning of these feelings is certainly
> > > > > > culturally>>> mediated. They are physiological phenomena, but
> > > > > > they are also
> > > > > > >> meaningful> cultural phenomena, with value judgements
> > > > > > attached,
> > > > > > >> with intertexts in
> > > > > > >>> literature, etc.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> And we can deliberately write to our most physiological
> > > > > > >> states, e.g. with
> > > > > > >>> drugs, to produce feelings that have cultural meanings and
> > > > > > >> values for us,
> > > > > > >>> whether of calm or elation, energy or hallucination.
> > > And to
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > >> considerable> extent, our modifications of our body
> > > > > > physiology
> > > > > > >> can be "read" by others,
> > > > > > >>> just as can our made physiques, tattoos, or hair styles.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> So I would say that the body mediates our sense of the world
> > > > > > >> and ourselves
> > > > > > >>> and other people in at least two ways: directly through
> > > > > > >> physiology, as with
> > > > > > >>> hormonal responses, sensory modalities of perception, bodily
> > > > > > >> affordances and
> > > > > > >>> dis-affordances ("handicaps" for example), etc. AND
> > > also in
> > > > > > >> these other,
> > > > > > >>> clearly semiotic and cultural ways, as a semiotic artifact,
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > >> well as with
> > > > > > >>> the cultural overlays of meaning that lie over and
> > > color the
> > > > > > >> meanings and
> > > > > > >>> responses to all the direct physiological mediations.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> I do not, however, know what being wooden on a rainy day
> > > > > > feels
> > > > > > >> like to a
> > > > > > >>> chair.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> JAY.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Jay Lemke
> > > > > > >>> Professor (Adjunct, 2009-2010)
> > > > > > >>> Educational Studies
> > > > > > >>> University of Michigan
> > > > > > >>> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> > > > > > >>> www.umich.edu/~jaylemke <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>
> > > <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
> > > > http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Visiting Scholar
> > > > > > >>> Laboratory for Comparative Human Communication
> > > > > > >>> University of California -- San Diego
> > > > > > >>> La Jolla, CA
> > > > > > >>> USA 92093
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> On Dec 7, 2009, at 4:14 AM, Mabel Encinas wrote:
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>> Ok. You have a point. Then, lets start thinking from an
> > > > > > >> embodied approach
> > > > > > >>>> :)
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Let's accept that the body is an artifact. What is
> > > then the
> > > > > > >> difference>> between a chair and the body. Both are yes,
> > > > > > >> "products of human art", as you
> > > > > > >>>> express it. However, only in the process (practice) there
> > > > > > >> seem to be a
> > > > > > >>>> difference. Both are material and ideal (the body is not
> > > > > > >> separated from the
> > > > > > >>>> mind; the chair, this one here that I feel is made of cloth
> > > > > > >> and a cushioned
> > > > > > >>>> material, plastic, metal, and involves the ideal that a
> > > > > > >> designer and workers
> > > > > > >>>> in a factory transformed so people could seat on).
> > > What is
> > > > > > >> the difference?
> > > > > > >>>> Mabel
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 22:53:40 +1100
> > > > > > >>>>> From: ablunden@mira.net
> > > > > > >>>>> To: liliamabel@hotmail.com
> > > > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Well, the body is the body is the body. The reason the
> > > > > > >>>>> question arises for me is when we make
> > > generalisations in
> > > > > > >>>>> which things like person, artefact, consciousness,
> > > concept,> > > >>>>> action, and so on, figure, where does the
> > > body fit in? My
> > > > > > >>>>> response was that even though it is obviously unique
> > > in many
> > > > > > >>>>> ways, it falls into the same category as artefacts.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> My questions to you are: what harm is done? why is
> > > anything> > > >>>>> ignored? And, what is the body if it is not
> > > a material
> > > > > > >>>>> product of human art, used by human beings?
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Andy
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Mabel Encinas wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Is this way being fruitful? That is why I do not
> > > like to
> > > > > > >> consider the
> > > > > > >>>>>> body as an artifact. Did not cognitive pscyhology do
> > > > > > that?
> > > > > > >> (Bruner, Acts
> > > > > > >>>>>> of Meaning). Then intentions and all the teleological
> > > > > > >> aspects are so
> > > > > > >>>>>> much ignored...
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Mabel
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:21:09 +1100
> > > > > > >>>>>>> From: ablunden@mira.net
> > > > > > >>>>>>> To: liliamabel@hotmail.com
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Sure. But the body has been constructed like a living
> > > > > > >>>>>>> machine - the various artefacts that you use
> > > > > (especially but
> > > > > > >>>>>>> not only language and images) are "internalized"
> > > in some
> > > > > > >>>>>>> way. So one (external) artefact is replaced by another
> > > > > > >>>>>>> (internal) artefact. Yes?
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Andy
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Mabel Encinas wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> However, sometimes practices do not involve other
> > > artefact> > > >>>>>>>> than the body (some practices are
> > > directed to the
> > > > > > body),
> > > > > > >> and that was
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> why I was talking about the limit of thinking
> > > about the
> > > > > > >> body as
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> artefact... is that a limit? That is why I mentioned
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > >> body as "the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> raw material". I was thinking for example practices
> > > > > > >> linked to
> > > > > > >>>>>>> meditation
> > > > > > >>>>>>> and the like, for example, among many others.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Mabel
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > >> ------------
> > > > > > >>>>>> Keep your friends updated— even when you’re not
> > > signed in.
> > > > > > >>>>>> <
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-
> > > > > > >> it-in-action/social-network-
> > > > > > >> basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-
> > > xm:SI_SB_5:092010> > > >>>>> --
> > > > > > >>>>> -----------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > >> -----------
> > > > > > >>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > > > > > >>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
> > > Meshcheryakov,> > > >>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
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> > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-
> > > > > > >> it-in-action/social-network-
> > > > > > >> basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > xm:SI_SB_4:092009_______________________________________________>>>> xmca
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> > > > > > --
> > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > > -------
> > > > > > Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > > > > > Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> > > > > > Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca




Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you. 		 	   		  
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Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_1:092010_______________________________________________
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