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Re: [xmca] Emotions and methodology



... mm. No, I think you are right Mike, he is quoting Høffding isn't he, because the indented paragraph fits what he just said.

Andy

Andy Blunden wrote:
I'm really not sure where everyone is coming from here! :) Mike, are you referring to the indented paragraph:

Both mind and body are for us objective, but whereas mental objects [geistigen Objekte] are by their nature related to the knowing subject, the body exists only as an object for us. The relation between subject and object is an epistemological problem [Erkenntnisproblem], the relation between mind and matter is an ontological problem [Daseinsproblem].

on p. 323 of the English edition? It is not attributed in the English edition, but my assumption is that he is continuing to quote Engels here. I have tried to find it in MECW but failed so far.

Is this what is at issue?

Andy


mike cole wrote:
Attached is the paper martin refers to. But where is the equivalent to the
indented passage from the Soviet Psych translation and p. 310 vol 3 of
collected works (in English?). I may have vol 3 in Russian at work and can check, but it appears to me, as indicated elsewhere in the discussion, that this methodological/ontological chit chat comes from recent British writing, the relationship of which to LSV's writing in cited passages is not clear to
me.
mike

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:

Mabel,

Yes, this is where LSV insists on the importance of not confusing
epistemological issues with ontological ones. It's one of the more puzzling
passages in Crisis, and I suspect there are some problems with the
translation. (Is the indented passage a quotation from Hoffding? Does anyone have that text?) Nothing here about methodological dualism, however. I don't
think this passage is the place to start to understand better the
distinction between epistemology and ontology, if that is what you want to
do.

Martin

You might consider taking a look here (if so tell me whether or not it
helps):

Packer, M. J., & Goicoechea, J. (2000). Sociocultural and constructivist
theories of learning: Ontology, not just epistemology. Educational
Psychologist, 35(4), 227-241.


On Nov 14, 2009, at 11:45 PM, Mabel Encinas wrote:

Martin,



Here it is (Andy sent it to me, I have it in hardcopy Vol 3 of Vygotsky's
Collected Works, p. 310):
http://marx.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1367

Mabel










Subject: Re: [xmca] Emotions and methodology
From: packer@duq.edu
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:42:06 -0500
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu

Mabel,

I confess I don't recognize the term methodological dualism. Where are
you finding this?
Martin

On Nov 14, 2009, at 5:45 PM, Mabel Encinas wrote:


My question to Andy was if he could please give me some references
about the difference-relation between ontological and methodological
dualism? I was aimed to get some contemporary references to this discussion.
I already had read Vygotsky. Does anyone has a suggestion, please?


Thank you,
Mabel










Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:56:07 -0800
Subject: Re: [xmca] Hello Other Brain, how are you?
From: lchcmike@gmail.com
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu

There was a discussion of this topic around your MCA article a while
back,
Michael. Mabel might be able to use some of the specific techniques,
which,
I recall, were not too demading in terms of technology, to find a
bridge to
what her advisors expect.

Martin's sources are right on. But Mabel is going to have to negotiate
the
rocky
shoals of her own institutional situation, and invoking XMCA is not
likely
to win her a lot of friends!!

mike

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca>
wrote:
In the following piece, we show how emotion (as evidenced in prosody)
is a
resource for the coordination of social action. Michael

Cult Stud of Sci Educ
DOI 10.1007/s11422-009-9203-8
Solidarity and conflict: aligned and misaligned prosody
as a transactional resource in intra- and intercultural
communication involving power differences
Wolff-Michael Roth Æ Kenneth Tobin

here

On 2009-11-14, at 6:55 AM, Martin Packer wrote:

I'm going to ignore Andy's request to ignore his message to Mabel,
because
I'm sure Mabel is not the only person being told this sort of thing.
The
claim, I suppose, is that emotion is a subjective experience, and
therefore
something mental, internal, personal, private and so inaccessible to
other
people, including the researcher, who has access only to the external
'expression' of that emotion, on the face, in movements, etc.

Nonsense. How to argue against that view? Take a look at Joe de
Rivera's
work on emotions as interpersonal movements, towards or away from
people on
three interpersonal dimensions of intimacy, openness, and status.
Read Hall
and Cobey (1976) on emotion as transformation of the world. Read
Mead's
Mind, Self and Society where he challenges Darwin, insisting that "we cannot approach them [emotions] from the point of view of expressing
a
content in the mind of the individual" (p. 17) because to do so
presumes a
dualism between consciousness and the biological organism.

These are some resources that come immediately to my mind. What can
others
out there recommend?

Martin


On Nov 14, 2009, at 4:42 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:

You have good muses Mabel (Vygotsky and Marx), pity you
don't have better supervisors. Your approach, studying
microsituations as social, is Vygotsky's approach too, I
think, and excellent one, that is often, I fear, not well
understood. I am probably the last person to ask about that
kind of problem as I have a devil of a problem making myself
understood. Others will know the answers to your questions
better than me, too. But I will mention a few suggestions.

Mabel Encinas wrote:

My supervisors are questioning now, that I do not study emotions,
but
"the expression of emotions". I know how to solidify my argument in
this
bit, but could you please give me some references of where should I
read
about the difference-relation between ontological and
methodological
dualism?

I guess you have already read Vygotsky's comments on
ontological vs methodological/epistemological dualism:
http://marx.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1367

If you use Google on this one, you will probably find a page
where I am being attacked by someone called Neville for
failing to make this distinction. I am far from sure of the
value of that exchange but you are welcome to read it. I
would not attempt a short summary of this issue.

I am not sure what you are being accused of about emotions.
Martha Nussbaum is a Critical Theorist who writes good stuff
about emotions. And of course everyone reads Antonio
Damassio, with his distinction between feelings and
emotions. Certainly, emotions are only present in
consciousness thanks to their "interpretation" by culturally
acquired concepts.

""the expression of emotions" is a strange expression to me.
Are they using "emotions" to refer to forms of consciousness
which are "expressed" in high blood pressure, etc? Or are
they using "emotions" to refer to physiological conditions,
which are "expressed" in the character of behavior. I don't
understand. I am sure others will know. Sounds like a
template accusation.

Andy

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