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Re: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language and thought
Achilles,
Just some guesses. But to advance other ideas, me too, I need to read Rühle.
In my opinion, LSV's point of view was in conformity with the Marxist theory
in general (social consciousness, historicism) and Bruce's remark about the
(radical) political position of Rühle within the social democracy may imply
an orthodox position for Rühle about theoretical issues too. Therefore, I
can expect a conformity with LSV's point of view about the formation of
mind, its relationship with classes and class struggles, for Rühle.
Ulvi
2009/8/31, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>:
>
>
> Thank you very much, Ulvi,
>
> I understand, and I agree. It's very clear your explanation and
> conceptually perfect to my comprehension. But let me ask you
> in addiction: Do you think that proletariat child psyche studied by
> Otto Rühle in German have important cultural-historical similarity
> with proletarian children studied by soviet pedologists in Russia?
> I know that I'm not prepared to make these questions without
> read Rühle yet, but if you allow me, I ask you even so, ok? So
> soon that we can, we will acquire a Spanish version from the
> book... Thank you again, your answer since now is very instructive
> too.
>
> Best wishes.
> Achilles.
>
> > Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:09:13 +0300
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language
> and thought
> > From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > Dear Achilles,
> >
> > Some thoughts:
> >
> > 1. Proletariat in 20s in Soviet Union is not surely a proletariat similar
> to
> > the one in a capitalist society. In this sense, the children of the
> > proletariat there in 20s are not children of an exploited proletariat
> etc...
> > But in another context, we can remember that during 20s, in Soviet Union,
> > social classes were not liquidated yet, even more, class struggles was
> going
> > on quite violently...New Economic Policy has even strengthened the
> position
> > of kulaks (capitalist peasants) etc We can also remember that liquidation
> of
> > the bourgeoisie takes towards the beginning of the 30s in the true sense
> of
> > the word, with industrialization and collectivisation.
> > 2. Conceptually, even though bourgeoisie was liquidated, Soviet working
> > class saw itself as proletariat...In fact, this was theoretically named
> as
> > dictatorship of the proleariat...
> > 3. In this sense, Soviet children at that time were proletarian children,
> > but a proletariat who owned the political power and who did not establish
> > yet socialism...
> >
> > Ulvi
> >
> >
> > 2009/8/31, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>:
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you, very much David.
> > >
> > > It's very instructive.
> > >
> > > I will see the quotations at the Works.
> > > Seems to be interesting that Vygotsky was
> > > open to Rühle, even he was agaist Leninism,
> > > and saw Soviet Union as a form of State
> > > Capitalism... (I don't know if that information
> > > is reliable)... But, the point is just about
> > > relationships between social class position
> > > and social formation of mind. I agree with
> > > the opposition to Zalking thinking in terms of
> > > "class character"... I wonder that in "Socialist
> > > alteration of man" the relation of personality
> > > formation and class struggle seems to be more
> > > in dialectical terms... The entire society is
> > > not homogeneous, then the social formation
> > > of personality is not homogeneous too... But
> > > I really don´t know yet if Rühle thank like
> > > Zalkind. Do you think so?
> > >
> > > Thank you very much David... My friend tell
> > > me that she already find a Spanish version from
> > > the Rühle's book reviewed by Vygotsky... and
> > > them this seems to be very useful. There was
> > > yet some pedological works about soviet children
> > > valuation about class struggle, expropriation,
> > > relations between money and work, etc. There
> > > is a list of questions for interview with children
> > > from Mikhail Basov, that contains this kind of
> > > questions, together others about "physical
> > > causality", etc. This is reported by Valsiner,
> > > but I don´t know if this is the same. Can we
> > > call soviet children exactly "proletarian children"?
> > > In a social context in that people believe that
> > > there are no more "classes"? But we will see
> > > that pedologists studies too, if we could...
> > >
> > > Oh. Thank you very much... You help me too think
> > > broader than before...
> > >
> > > Best wishes.
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 22:03:53 -0700
> > > > From: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language
> > > and thought
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >
> > > > Dear Achilles:
> > > >
> > > > As you probably know, there are a few references to Otto Ruele in
> Volume
> > > Two of the Collected Works on defectology, and some of these are to
> "The
> > > psyche of proletarian children".
> > > >
> > > > Overall, LSV takes a positive view of the work, which is a little
> > > surprising because of his hostility to the ideas of Zalkind on
> "proletarian
> > > character".
> > > >
> > > > Ruele seems to have been close to Adler, and a critic of Freud (or so
> > > says the notes on Ruele in Volume Two. LSV has generally nice things to
> say
> > > about Adler too.
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Seoul National University of Education
> > > >
> > > > PS: Mike, I wasn't trying to put either you or Meltzoff on the spot;
> I
> > > was really just writing fluff along the lines of
> > >
> something-I-read-on-the-way-to-work-this-morning-that-I-thought-you-might-find-interesting.
> > > >
> > > > I guess the most interesting thing about it for me has to do with
> Greg's
> > > rather Whorfian letter which argues that thinking and speech have to be
> a
> > > lot closer than the longitude and latitude metaphor suggest, and that
> in
> > > particular phasal and semantic aspects of speech are really one and the
> same
> > > thing, linked but not distinct. When two things are linked but not
> distinct,
> > > it is hard to see how they can develop each other.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, SOMETHING happens in the brain when we read, and it may
> happen
> > > in different parts of the brain when we read different scripts (just as
> we
> > > may recover memories from different parts of the brain). But sometimes
> > > structural differences really can be "uncoupled" from ffunctional
> > > differences, and I think this is one of them.
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Seoul National University of Education
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 8/30/09, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > > Subject: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children"...
> > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 7:01 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi XMCA.
> > > > How are you?
> > > > I wish fine.
> > > >
> > > > Please, I'm asking you for a help, one more time.
> > > > There is a friend of mine, working with expropriated
> > > > children, fighting against "child work expropriation" in the
> > > > North-east from my country. And she is looking for a particular
> > > > text from Vygotsky, and I suppose that there is no publication
> > > > of it, even in Russian. This is the title, seems to be only
> > > > the manuscript
> > > >
> > > > Review of The Psyche of proletarian Children by Otto Rulle
> > > > (Moscow-Leningrad, 1926). Private archives of L. S. Vygotsky.
> > > > Manucript, 3. pp.
> > > > Рец.
> > > > на кн.: Отто Рюле. Психика пролетарского ребенка. М.; Л.: ГИЗ, 1926
> //
> > > Семейный
> > > > арх. Л.С. Выготского. 1926. 3 с. Рукопись.
> > > >
> > > > But this indication that there is only the manuscript is from 1996'
> > > > Lifanova's paper. Then, who knows if there is any publication
> after...
> > > > Do you have any notice about this work, or some general suggestion
> > > > of reading something about this subject (the psyche of children
> > > > in terms of social classes, and class struggle)?
> > > >
> > > > Thank you very much about your attention and help.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes.
> > > > Achilles.
> > > > >From Brazil.
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