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RE: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language and thought
Thank you very much, Ulvi,
I understand, and I agree. It's very clear your explanation and
conceptually perfect to my comprehension. But let me ask you
in addiction: Do you think that proletariat child psyche studied by
Otto Rühle in German have important cultural-historical similarity
with proletarian children studied by soviet pedologists in Russia?
I know that I'm not prepared to make these questions without
read Rühle yet, but if you allow me, I ask you even so, ok? So
soon that we can, we will acquire a Spanish version from the
book... Thank you again, your answer since now is very instructive
too.
Best wishes.
Achilles.
> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:09:13 +0300
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language and thought
> From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>
> Dear Achilles,
>
> Some thoughts:
>
> 1. Proletariat in 20s in Soviet Union is not surely a proletariat similar to
> the one in a capitalist society. In this sense, the children of the
> proletariat there in 20s are not children of an exploited proletariat etc...
> But in another context, we can remember that during 20s, in Soviet Union,
> social classes were not liquidated yet, even more, class struggles was going
> on quite violently...New Economic Policy has even strengthened the position
> of kulaks (capitalist peasants) etc We can also remember that liquidation of
> the bourgeoisie takes towards the beginning of the 30s in the true sense of
> the word, with industrialization and collectivisation.
> 2. Conceptually, even though bourgeoisie was liquidated, Soviet working
> class saw itself as proletariat...In fact, this was theoretically named as
> dictatorship of the proleariat...
> 3. In this sense, Soviet children at that time were proletarian children,
> but a proletariat who owned the political power and who did not establish
> yet socialism...
>
> Ulvi
>
>
> 2009/8/31, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>:
> >
> >
> > Thank you, very much David.
> >
> > It's very instructive.
> >
> > I will see the quotations at the Works.
> > Seems to be interesting that Vygotsky was
> > open to Rühle, even he was agaist Leninism,
> > and saw Soviet Union as a form of State
> > Capitalism... (I don't know if that information
> > is reliable)... But, the point is just about
> > relationships between social class position
> > and social formation of mind. I agree with
> > the opposition to Zalking thinking in terms of
> > "class character"... I wonder that in "Socialist
> > alteration of man" the relation of personality
> > formation and class struggle seems to be more
> > in dialectical terms... The entire society is
> > not homogeneous, then the social formation
> > of personality is not homogeneous too... But
> > I really don´t know yet if Rühle thank like
> > Zalkind. Do you think so?
> >
> > Thank you very much David... My friend tell
> > me that she already find a Spanish version from
> > the Rühle's book reviewed by Vygotsky... and
> > them this seems to be very useful. There was
> > yet some pedological works about soviet children
> > valuation about class struggle, expropriation,
> > relations between money and work, etc. There
> > is a list of questions for interview with children
> > from Mikhail Basov, that contains this kind of
> > questions, together others about "physical
> > causality", etc. This is reported by Valsiner,
> > but I don´t know if this is the same. Can we
> > call soviet children exactly "proletarian children"?
> > In a social context in that people believe that
> > there are no more "classes"? But we will see
> > that pedologists studies too, if we could...
> >
> > Oh. Thank you very much... You help me too think
> > broader than before...
> >
> > Best wishes.
> > Achilles.
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 22:03:53 -0700
> > > From: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language
> > and thought
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > Dear Achilles:
> > >
> > > As you probably know, there are a few references to Otto Ruele in Volume
> > Two of the Collected Works on defectology, and some of these are to "The
> > psyche of proletarian children".
> > >
> > > Overall, LSV takes a positive view of the work, which is a little
> > surprising because of his hostility to the ideas of Zalkind on "proletarian
> > character".
> > >
> > > Ruele seems to have been close to Adler, and a critic of Freud (or so
> > says the notes on Ruele in Volume Two. LSV has generally nice things to say
> > about Adler too.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Seoul National University of Education
> > >
> > > PS: Mike, I wasn't trying to put either you or Meltzoff on the spot; I
> > was really just writing fluff along the lines of
> > something-I-read-on-the-way-to-work-this-morning-that-I-thought-you-might-find-interesting.
> > >
> > > I guess the most interesting thing about it for me has to do with Greg's
> > rather Whorfian letter which argues that thinking and speech have to be a
> > lot closer than the longitude and latitude metaphor suggest, and that in
> > particular phasal and semantic aspects of speech are really one and the same
> > thing, linked but not distinct. When two things are linked but not distinct,
> > it is hard to see how they can develop each other.
> > >
> > > Of course, SOMETHING happens in the brain when we read, and it may happen
> > in different parts of the brain when we read different scripts (just as we
> > may recover memories from different parts of the brain). But sometimes
> > structural differences really can be "uncoupled" from ffunctional
> > differences, and I think this is one of them.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Seoul National University of Education
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 8/30/09, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > Subject: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children"...
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 7:01 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi XMCA.
> > > How are you?
> > > I wish fine.
> > >
> > > Please, I'm asking you for a help, one more time.
> > > There is a friend of mine, working with expropriated
> > > children, fighting against "child work expropriation" in the
> > > North-east from my country. And she is looking for a particular
> > > text from Vygotsky, and I suppose that there is no publication
> > > of it, even in Russian. This is the title, seems to be only
> > > the manuscript
> > >
> > > Review of The Psyche of proletarian Children by Otto Rulle
> > > (Moscow-Leningrad, 1926). Private archives of L. S. Vygotsky.
> > > Manucript, 3. pp.
> > > Рец.
> > > на кн.: Отто Рюле. Психика пролетарского ребенка. М.; Л.: ГИЗ, 1926 //
> > Семейный
> > > арх. Л.С. Выготского. 1926. 3 с. Рукопись.
> > >
> > > But this indication that there is only the manuscript is from 1996'
> > > Lifanova's paper. Then, who knows if there is any publication after...
> > > Do you have any notice about this work, or some general suggestion
> > > of reading something about this subject (the psyche of children
> > > in terms of social classes, and class struggle)?
> > >
> > > Thank you very much about your attention and help.
> > >
> > > Best wishes.
> > > Achilles.
> > > >From Brazil.
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