RE: [xmca] Is there something about LSV in "clinical settings"?

Thank you very much,

I understand...

And we don't have many hope about the archival docs,
I presume... What happens? Problems with material
conditions? Why not a Complete Work of LSV, like we
have a Complete Work of Freud? Sometimes I don´t
understand... There not be selling/editorial conditions?
Excuse me... but do you think that could actually exist
notes, protocols of Vygotsky's clinical praxis? Or perhaps
he didn't take any notes as other psychologists do? I'm
repeating my first question because, at the end, I turn
confused about this point... not availability but existence
of this clinical material...

Please, forgive me.

Thank you, once more, you are really enlighten the path...
Best wishes...
Achilles.

> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:14:47 -0800
> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Is there something about LSV in "clinical settings"?
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>
> Right, Gita Birenbaum was a "she".
>
> I do not have any special opinion on Vygotsky's attempt at getting to Lewin's theorizing before the thoroughly explore the archives. I think this is all very interesting and exceptionally promising, however, the archival docs are badly needed.
>
> Finally, yes, I totally agree with V & V that we have to admit the close proximity of the notions of the "zone" (Vygotsky) and the "field" (Lewin), but lots of work needs to be donein order to determine the full potential of either to developmental psychology these days.
>
> AY
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:36:01 PM
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Is there something about LSV in "clinical settings"?
>
>
> It's great, Anton...
>
> Thank you very, very much...
>
> Do you think that "ZDP/ZBR" concept
> is, in some way, a field-theory-like concept
> as suggested by Valsiner and Van der Veer?
> How do you evaluate that trying to merge
> Vygotsky with Lewin's theory by Zeigarnik
> and Birenbaum... (Birenbaum was "she"?
> Gita?)
>
> Thank you again!
> Achilles.
>
> > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:55:36 -0800
> > From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Is there something about LSV in "clinical settings"?
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > Many questions, - one by one:
> >
> > 1. "Gestaltist orientation" - absolutely! However, just a remark: by "Gestaltist" I mean here mostly the work of K. Lewin and his school. Indeed so, I would even go as far as to claim that during the early 1930s Lewin becomes more insightful for Vygotsky than, say, Luria (and certainly not Leontiev).
> >
> > 2. The actual role of Vygotsky - I guess Samukhin was the one who actually wrote the paper, Birenbaum supervised it, and the whole study was conducted under the supervision of the deathly ill Vygotsky a couple of years before (I woudl still need to check out the actual dates provided in the text). This said, however, I do not think we should dismiss the experience of the Medical Doctor Samukhin as well as the contribution of Lewin's student Gita Birenbaum. I would say, this was a truly collaborative paper. Also, please note that the name of the third author (LSV) is in the black frame, which clearly means that the paper was published after his death.
> >
> > 3. Nobody knows for sure when the paper was written, but as a hint, I guess, it would be worthwhole to check out the list of the papers that Vygotsky proposed for a series on clinical psychology (see his letter to Luria of November 21, 1933 (Vestnik MGU, 2007; Journal of Russian and East European Psychology, vol. 45, no. 2, March–April 2007, pp. 11–60).
> >
> > 4. Finally, another couple of papers that have been overlooked by the historians of psychology are those by Birenbaum and Zeigarnik (1935a, 1935b), in which the authors are reporting on their studies under the supervision of Vygotksy and are clearly trying to merge the work of Vygotsky with Lewin's theory. Another good point of departure.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 9:41:51 AM
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Is there something about LSV in "clinical settings"?
> >
> >
> > Thanks Anton, very much...
> >
> > I had obtained a copy of Vygotsky Samukhin and Birembaum...
> > But my process of translation from Russian to Portuguese is very hard
> > and slow. Do you think that there is a definite "Gestaltist" orientation
> > at all this work? How do you evaluate the actual role of Vygotsky
> > in the final writing of the text? (...) Can you tell us something more
> > about the history of the experiences with patients and the
> > history of the production of this interesting paper? It was really
> > writed in 1934, or only published at this year? The more advanced
> > vygotskyan conception of semiotic mediation (exposed at chapter
> > seven "misl i slovo") is already present at the work of Pick Disease
> > patients?
> >
> > Thank you very much. Sorry about so much questions, maybe
> > not so relevant ones, but I'm curious...
> >
> > Best wishes.
> >
> > Achilles.
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 06:19:52 -0800
> > > From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Is there something about LSV in "clinical settings"?
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > The paper with Samukhin and Birenbaum seems to be virtually the only source on "clinical Vygotsky" that has been published to date.
> > >
> > > To the best of my knowledge, the rest is in Vygotsky's archives: manuscripts, notes, protocols that have never been brought to daylight.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>; delari@uol.com.br
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:59:55 PM
> > > Subject: [xmca] Is there something about LSV in "clinical settings"?
> > >
> > >
> > > Greetings for all,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Let me ask for one more question. Valsiner and Van der Veer said:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "He [Vygotsky] was no child psychologist but a psychologist who
> > >
> > > became increasingly interested in the theoretical problem of
> > >
> > > development, which led him to study cultural diversity, brain
> > >
> > > pathology, and other disciplines. By inclination he was a theoretical
> > >
> > > psychologist. In practice, his applied work was most in clinical settings"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -- Valsiner and Van de Veer (2000) The social mind - construction of the idea. p 339
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Is there any reference, file, manuscript, letter, case studies, anything, about
> > >
> > > the way Vygotsky's work in clinical settings? Something about how were his
> > > clinical technical resources and so forth?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you very much.
> > >
> > >
> > > Achilles.
> > >
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Received on Fri Dec 12 10:48:20 2008