RE: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease" (Roman Luria)

Ok, Bella. Thank you again, very much.
Achilles.

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:01:31 +0200
> From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease" (Roman Luria)
>
> As far as I can recall there was no systematic recording of these weekly
> meetings. written records in the patients' files were done afterwards mostly
> by colleagues.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Mike, Bella,
> > Thank you again. Excuse me, I didn't read (if I read I don't remember)
> > about that "oral analysis";
> > There was any pupil or colleague of A.R.Luria that have compiled these
> > lessons? Any historian
> > that have rescue some reference and put them available? The explicit
> > quotation of the "internal
> > image of the disease" would be important to this concept in A.R. Luria or
> > can be sufficient search
> > for subtextual or intertextual conceptual relations?
> > Thank you.
> > Achilles.
> >
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:50:35 -0700
> > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease" (Roman Luria)
> > > CC: c.levitin@l-card.ru
> > >
> > > Hi Bella (with two LLs!- excuse my sloppy typing).
> > >
> > > My understanding is that RAL wanted ARL to become a Dr. and thought
> > > psychology a waste of time. ARL went for psychology, but, in part at
> > least,
> > > through his association with Vygotsky, did some medical school work in
> > > parallel
> > > with their other work in the late 1920's-1930's. Then the terror
> > descended
> > > and
> > > going to medical school was a tunnel to survival, a tunnel that opened up
> > > tragically (again) in WWII.
> > >
> > > The twists and turns, again in my limited understanding, are in the
> > > "Dialogue with the Autobiography of A.R. Luria." Perhaps Karl Yefimich
> > has
> > > something to add or correct?
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:52 AM, bella kotik <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sure there was influence of Luria father on development of his son's
> > > > interest in psychology, physiology and medicine. ARL mentioned the
> > inner
> > > > image of the illness in his oral neuropsychological analysis of cases
> > (на
> > > > разборах больных). As the the influence on his theoretical approach I
> > can
> > > > not see it with confidence. Mike, what is your opinion?
> > > > Bella
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh... It's wonderful, thank you very much.
> > > > > Do you think that "internal image of disease" from R.A.Luria can be
> > > > related
> > > > > to the later approach of A.R. Luria in his "Romantic Science"
> > followed by
> > > > > Sacks (as he said in "A leg to stand on") , and expressed in Luria's
> > > > works,
> > > > > like "The mind of a mnemonist" and "The man with a shattered world"?
> > Can
> > > > I
> > > > > try to combine these contributions in a same coherent theoretical
> > > > framework
> > > > > or many adjusts must be made? Sorry about my simple questions, but
> > they
> > > > are
> > > > > important to me at this moment and I'm trying to learn and to
> > > > construct...
> > > > > Your contribution has been very important and elucidative. Sorry
> > about my
> > > > > English too, my writing must sounds very rough, but I can understand
> > you
> > > > > very well, and for this reason I write even so. Thank you for all.
> > > > > Большое спасибо.
> > > > > Achilles.
> > > > >
> > > > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:54:39 +0200
> > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease" (Roman
> > > > Luria)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think the cultural-historical approach may be relevant for
> > valeology,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > it depends on the researcher. I'll ask a Russian friend for texts
> > in
> > > > > > valeology
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh, thank you,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you suggest something of the more important texts even in
> > Russian,
> > > > I
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > try to provide
> > > > > > > a translation to Portuguese. Do you think that valeology can be
> > > > > > > epistemologicaly
> > > > > > > compatible with a historical-cultural approach?
> > > > > > > Thank you very much.
> > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 08:51:22 +0200
> > > > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease"
> > (Roman
> > > > > Luria)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Some people in Russia are using this term: "internal image of
> > > > health"
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > context of rather new trend of research- valeology, but I do
> > not
> > > > know
> > > > > if
> > > > > > > > there is anything translated.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 4:22 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Interesting, Bella,
> > > > > > > > > I already was preferring "imagem" in Portuguese too,
> > > > > > > > > despite the translation of Asmolov's "Vygostky today:
> > > > > > > > > on the verge of non-classical psychology" had wrote
> > > > > > > > > "internal picture of disease" (Asmolov, 1988, p. 52)...
> > > > > > > > > And about "internal image of health"? What do you
> > > > > > > > > indicate to us?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thank you, very much, for your attention and help.
> > > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:54:11 +0200
> > > > > > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease"
> > > > (Roman
> > > > > > > Luria)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You are right, Achilles, both image and picture are
> > possible
> > > > > > > translations
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > "kartina", but I think image is more relevant;
> > > > > > > > > > As to dynamics- it depends of the context.
> > > > > > > > > > BKF
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bella,
> > > > > > > > > > > Тhank you very much... I will search for the book and
> > papers
> > > > > > > quoting
> > > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > "Vnutrennyaya kartyna bolezny"... Can we translate
> > "kartyna"
> > > > as
> > > > > > > "image"
> > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > "picture" too?
> > > > > > > > > > > I liked "dynamics", because includes movement of this
> > > > > "kartyna"...
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > you think to be
> > > > > > > > > > > the best option? Thank you for all.
> > > > > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:05:32 +0200
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics of disease"
> > (Luria
> > > > > apud
> > > > > > > > > > > Zeignarnik)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > *Лурия P. А*. Внутренняя картина болезни и патогенные
> > > > > > > заболевания.
> > > > > > > > > М.,
> > > > > > > > > > > 1944.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I do not have any information about it's availiability.
> > I
> > > > > made an
> > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > via
> > > > > > > > > > > > google.ru but could not find. May be in Moscow it
> > would be
> > > > > > > possible
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > find,
> > > > > > > > > > > > but I am in Jerusalem now.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Achilles Delari Junior
> > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, Bella,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking that "R.A" was a typographic
> > mistake...
> > > > > Mistake
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > mine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But, can you tell me the work quoted by Zeigarnik,
> > and
> > > > say
> > > > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > > > > about it's availability? And, about this reference:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > LURIA, A.R. Internal description of illness and
> > > > pathogenic
> > > > > > > > > > > diseases.Moscow,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1944.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's realy from Alexander Romanovich? There is means
> > to
> > > > > obtain
> > > > > > > it?
> > > > > > > > > Can
> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > > > > > me, telling me the Russian title?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your patience and help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 08:56:11 +0200
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics of disease"
> > > > (Luria
> > > > > > > apud
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Zeignarnik)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roman Albertovich Luria was the father of Alexander
> > > > > > > Romanovich
> > > > > > > > > Luria.
> > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > was R.A. Who R. A. Luria introduced the concept of
> > > > > "internal
> > > > > > > > > dynamics
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > disease," but it is often mistakenly cited (both in
> > > > > English
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Russian)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > as belonging to his famous son.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:28 AM, delari <
> > > > delari@uol.com.br
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings for all,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, can you give me a little help with a
> > Luria's
> > > > > book?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bluma V. Zeigarnik quotes Luria's concept of
> > > > "internal
> > > > > > > dynamics
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > disease"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The well-known Soviet therapist R. A. Luriya
> > > > > introduced
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > concept of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "internal dynamics of disease," by which he means
> > > > "all
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > patient experiences and feels, the entire
> > aggregate
> > > > of
> > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > > > sensations,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only local sensations due to his illness but also
> > his
> > > > > > > general
> > > > > > > > > > > feeling
> > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > himself, his self-observation, how he represents
> > his
> > > > > > > illness to
> > > > > > > > > > > himself
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Withrespect to its causes), all that which is
> > linked
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > approaching
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > physician - that entire internal world of the
> > > > patient,
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > consists
> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very complex combinations of perceptions and
> > > > > sensations,
> > > > > > > > > emotions,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > affects,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > conflicts, mental feelings, and trauma." He
> > indicated
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > behavior
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mental processes of the individual are changed at
> > the
> > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > moment
> > > > > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > > he
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > learns about his illness."(ZEIGARNIK, 1972,
> > P.133)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ZEIGARNIK, B. V. Experimental Abnormal psychology
> > [In
> > > > > fact:
> > > > > > > > > > > "Vvedenie v
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > patopsikhologiyu" = "Introduction to
> > > > Pathopsychology"].
> > > > > > > Chapter
> > > > > > > > > 6 -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personality disturbances in the mentally ill. New
> > > > York,
> > > > > > > London:
> > > > > > > > > > > Plenum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Press. 1972. p. 109-136. [I attached a copy of
> > the
> > > > > > > chapter]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She don´t give the date of the quotation, there
> > are 8
> > > > > > > titles by
> > > > > > > > > > > Luria
> > > > > > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > her bibliography. And I believe that the quoted
> > about
> > > > > > > "internal
> > > > > > > > > > > > > dynamics of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > disease" must be this:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LURIA, A.R. Internal description of illness and
> > > > > pathogenic
> > > > > > > > > > > diseases.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moscow, 1944.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any means to legally obtain a payed or
> > free
> > > > > copy
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > book,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even most probably in Russian?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you help me?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, very much, for your attention and
> > > > patience.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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> > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > >
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> > > > > > --
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> > > > --
> > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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>
> --
> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut

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Received on Thu Oct 30 15:56:17 2008