Re: [xmca] What Does the Russian Say?

I read the beginning of Chapter 2 in "Thinking and Speech," 1982 edition
that I brought with me to New York. My humble interpretation is that
Vygotsky is building the notion of crisis in psychology here, substantiating
the argument that psychology as science is in crises because its
methodological foundations are in an absolute contradition with factual data
collected in the most advanced research of that time. In this sense Vygotsky
distinguishes Piaget from other psychologists by showing that he was the
first one to address the qualitative transformations of the intellect in the
course of development. Vygotsky quotes Clapared, who wrote the introduction
to the first French edition of the book,
 we are shown now that this progress depends first of all t sed from
quantitave perspective, Piaget did from a qualitatative perspective. When
other interpreted child's progress in thinking as a resukt of mechnistic
addition and subtraction ( learning new facts from experience and excluding
some previous mistakes,

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:27 PM, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Access to the Russian originals from which the various translators
> were working would be helpful..
> perhaps the real Russian knowers will send along for discussion.
> mike
>
> On 9/19/08, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Terribly sorry, Russophiles! That went off by accident. Here's what I
> MEANT
> > to ask:
> > Our study group here in Seoul is trying to create a new Korean
> translation
> > of
> > "Thinking and Speech". We're VERY weak in Russian so we're
> > trying to get at the original by comparing translations, especially
> Norman
> > Minick's "Thinking and Speech" and Luciano Mecacci's
> > "Pensiero e Linguaggio".
> >
> > And that's the problem. At the beginning of Chapter Two, Minick's got
> > this:
> >
> > "The research of Jean Piaget represents a new stage in the devleopment of
> > theory concerning the speech and thinking of the child; a news stage in
> the
> > development of theory concerning the child's logic andworld view. His
> work
> > is of substantial historical significance.Beginning with a new
> persepctive
> > on
> > the problem, and using the clinical method he developed, Piaget ahs
> carried
> > out
> > profoundly insightful investigations of the child's logic. Piaget
> himself,
> > in concluding the second of his works, clearly and precisely noted the
> > significance of his approach in the study of this old problem.
> > "While Piaget's studies have created new directions..."
> >
> > Now, here's what Maccaci's got:
> >
> > "The research of Jean Piaget represents a new stage in the devleopment of
> > theory concerning the speech and thinking of the child; a news stage in
> the
> > development of theory concerning the child's logic andworld view. His
> work
> > is of substantial historical significance.Beginning with a new
> persepctive
> > on
> > the problem, and using the clinical method he developed, Piaget ahs
> carried
> > out
> > profoundly insightful investigations of the child's logic. Piaget
> himself,
> > in concluding the second of his works, clearly and precisely noted the
> > significance of his approach in the study of this old problem.
> >
> > Piaget himself, in concluding the second of his workers (i.e. "Reasoning
> and
> > Judgement of the Child" says this: "We therefore believe—and we
> affirm—that
> > one day we shall be able to put the thought of the child on the same
> plane
> > as the thought of a normal, civilized adult, the thought of the primitive
> > mentality defined by Levy Bruhl, the autistic and symbolic thought of
> Freud
> > and his followers, and the "morbid consciousness" of Charles Blondel."
> (p.
> > 408). In reality, this first work (i.e. "Language and Thought of the
> > Child"), for its historical significance for the development of the
> hidden
> > side of psychological thought, must be placed alongside and compared with
> > "Mental functioning in inferior societies" by Levy-Bruhl, "The
> > interpretation of dreams" by Freud, and "The morbid conscience" by
> Blondel.
> > Moreover, we observe between these findings in various fields of
> scientific
> > psychology not only an external likeness,
> > determined by their level of historical significance, but a profound and
> > intimate internal affinity, a common essence in the philosophical and
> > psychological tendencies that they contain and embody. Not without reason
> > does Piaget apologize in an exaggerated manner for the research and
> theories
> > of these three works and their authors."
> >
> > "While Piaget's studies have created new directions..."
> >
> >
> > Apparently those words of Vygotsky's in the middle have never appeared in
> > English. But you can see there's a BIG hunk missing,and that the cut does
> > not at all improve the text: in fact it makes the first part of the text
> > much more pro-Piagetian than Vygotsky meant.
> >
> > What's going on? Does anyone know why this was cut in the 1956 edition
> and
> > the 1982 edition?
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Seoul National University of Education
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear xmca Russophones:
> >
> >
> > But here's Mecacci (I'm translating roughly from the Italian):
> >
> > Piaget himself, in concluding the second of his workers (i.e. "Reasoning
> > and Judgement of the Child" says this: "We therefore believe—and we
> > affirm—that one day we shall be able to put the thought of the child on
> the
> > same plane as the thought of a normal, civilized adult, the thought of
> the
> > primitive mentality defined by Levy Bruhl, the autistic and symbolic
> thought
> > of Freud and his followers, and the "morbid consciousness" of Charles
> > Blondel." (p. 408). In reality, this first work (i.e. "Language and
> Thought
> > of the Child"), for its historical significance for the development of
> the
> > hidden side of psychological thought, must be placed alongside and
> compared
> > with "Mental functioning in inferior societies" by Levy-Bruhl, "The
> > interpretation of dreams" by Freud, and "The morbid conscience" by
> Blondel.
> > Moreover, we observe between these findings in various fields of
> scientific
> > psychology not only an external likeness,
> > determined by their level of historical significance, but a profound and
> > intimate internal affinity, a common essence in the philosophical and
> > psychological tendencies that they contain and embody. Not without reason
> > does Piaget apologize in an exaggerated manner for the research and
> theories
> > of these three works and their authors."
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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-- 
Elina Lampert-Shepel
Assistant Professor
Graduate School of Education
Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
Mercy College
66 West 35th Street
New York, NY 10001
(212) 615 3367
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violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
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is free to be a violin string.
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