RE: [xmca] RE: mental health

Yes, Achilles. It's only a vague hypothesis.

On the other hand, mastering semiotic devices, I think, presupposes a
somewhat complete integration of all mental processes. Otherwise, the
meaning and/or sense making is distorted. It is quite common among high
functioning autistics and some schizophrenics to have disconnected or, in
the best scenario, poorly connected with each other mental processes. And,
to simplify further, as a result, they experience difficulties with concept
formation and conceptual thinking. So, if society does not make any
decisions for them, who does?

I'll leave you with these thoughts.

All the best,
Michael.

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:32 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health

Michael

I agree... if decision making is in doubt all the time. But I wonder
how can decision making process originate from masterring
semiotic devices, about its historical-cultural genesis.
There is no social-cultural roots for mental diseases too?
About "person", your critical comment is correct too. But
I was wondering a person concept like Vygotsky's one in
"Concrete human psychology"... My quotation of Puzirey
was a note of him to this Vygotsky's handwriting... A person
as a function of social relations... social personality as
a drama of social roles transposed to an indidividual. The
social meanings of a illness, like it is aproprieted by a person
in his/her experience, would be more central than the illness
itself. Devellopment itself, Devellopment for others, Develloment
for oneself. But its only a vague hypothesis...

Thank you, again.

Achilles
Umuarama, July 14, 2008

> From: mglevykh@telus.net
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:14:32 -0700
>
> You are welcome, Achilles! The questions you pose are very important and
> complex. Since "what is important is...what man (person) is sick with this
> disease," it seems that it is up to the individual personality to either
> accept the influence of the society and (in most cases) compensate and
> develop, or reject. However, when the very mechanism of decision making is
> in doubt (as can be found among schizophrenics), it is also doubtful as to
> which way the development of such personality will proceed.
>
> Good luck with your research!
>
> Cheers,
> Michael.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:44 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
>
>
> Michael,I must (re)read Vygotsky's texts that I have here, about
> schizophrenia.I find only 2 texts. "Thinking in Schizophrenia" (1931)
> (published in VygotskyReader) and "The psychology of schizophrenia" (1933)
> (published inSoviet Psychology, 1987, p.72-77)... I don't know yet about
> this problemof "normal" personality (leachnost)... Until now I was
thinking
> in somethinglike Puzirei's interpretation: “It is important, as
> it formulates its basic thought T. Mann, to know not
> with what illness man (person) is sick, but - what man (person) is sick
> with this disease.”Then, I wondered that person, and social personality
was
> a more complextotality than the illness itself. That illness only can be
> understood in itsrelation with more complex entire dynamic-structural
sistem
> of higher mentalfuntions, related to consciousness, sense, personality,
and
> world view.If I am a schizophrenic person, maybe I can´t let to be
> schizophrenic, but to be schizophrenic is not all that I am as a person,
> socially constructed...I´m even a father, a son, a worker, a student, have
> my passions, feelings...I think that we can't be over-otimistic. But,
being
> realistic, can we helpa schizophrenic/bipolar/etc person to be, even so, a
> healthful person,even not all the time? How much (and essentialy by what
> ways) social/semiotic relations can contribute in the genesis of
> functional/dysfunctional arrange of psychic systems of person who has such
> diseases? I don´t know...I had associated personality with sense (smisl)
and
> world view (mirovozrenie). Then I supposed that to a person can to have a
> personality, necessarily HMF have to emerges. A "schizophrenic
personality"
> would be, in my way to think, a historical-cultural formation, overall.
This
> doesn't means forget the dialetic relations between neurofunctional
> substract of mental fuctions and the semiotic (extra-cortical) mediation
> divices, culturally provided. I´m confuse in my associations. I will try
to
> think better. Thank you very much.Achilles,Umuarama, July 13, 2008.
>
>
>
> > From: mglevykh@telus.net
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 12:25:57 -0700
> >
> > Achilles,
> >
> > Although being quite often over-optimistic, talking about personality,
> > Vygotsky was convinced that we cannot develop "normal" leachnost in a
> > post-schizophrenic person. Our goal is to facilitate development of a
> > "schizophrenic" leachnost - whatever it might mean.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michael.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
On
> > Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> > Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 9:43 AM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> >
> >
> > Peter,
> >
> > I understand, but I ask you: it can allow space for higher mental
> funcitons
> > by stoping biochemical elementary process that colapses intire system of
> > psychic funtions, but it can't strictly generate meaninful/semantic
> process
> > that
> > constitute consciousness ideological organization, personality structure
> and
> > world view. Can it? Maybe the answer seems to be obvious... But, if I
take
> > Lithium, Clorpromazina and Sertralina, my sleep and anxiety turns more
> > controlable, and my mood more euthimic, and so on, then it allow space
> > for any kind of productive imagination and thinking, that can actually
> > occurs
> > or not... but my entire thinking system of higher mental funtions seems
to
> > be
> > organized by other semantic process too, socially, culturally generated
-
> > Then I agree that we need a "a balance between attending to the
> > neuroatypical
> > issues (autism, bipolar disorder, etc.) and attending to what's more
> > strictly
> > on the outside (other people's attitudes, the social arrangement of
> material
> >
> > surroundings that channel thinking about difference--see, e.g.,
> > accommodations for
> > physically handicapped people)." Even so, my curiosity is too about the
> > possibility of generate social-cultural semiotic resources to promote
> > semantic
> > process that (re)organizes intire personality, consciousness,
> > dinamic-structural
> > sistems, in order to people's (maybe) better using of highter mental
> > functions
> > that medications can allow space for. Five years of psychoanalisys was
not
> > very productive to me, for instance, I wonder if could be any third way
> > beyond
> > mentalistic and naturalistic aproachs in psychoterapy as well as in
> general
> > psychology and in educational psychology researchs and social practices.
> > But, I'm just thinking by associations, I have to study very much - to
> read,
> > to
> >
> > maintain atentional focus, motivation, an so on. Valsiner and Van der
> Veer's
> >
> > claim, that Vygotsky in practice worked more in clinical setting, makes
me
>
> > wonder: how he actually did this? Why we don't have much information
about
> > this practice?
> > ...
> > Thank you very much.
> > Achilles,
> > Umuarama, July 13, 2008.
> >
> > > From: smago@uga.edu
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> > > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:43:35 -0400
> > >
> > > My sense is that medications can allow space for higher mental
> functions,
> > > which might otherwise be choked off by panic attacks and other
> responses.
> > >
> > > Peter Smagorinsky
> > > The University of Georgia
> > > 125 Aderhold Hall
> > > Athens, GA 30602
> > > smago@uga.edu/phone:706-542-4507
> > > http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:05 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter, thank you, very much.
> > >
> > > I strongly agree with your position, not only agree but
> > > I'm learning a lot with you. I wonder that medication can not
> > > directlly affect highter mental funtions, not in semantic/
> > > ideologic organization of conciousness. I agree with
> > > Volochinov/Bakhtin's postition (in his wor "Freudism")
> > > that human conflicts are ideological/not strictly biological
> > > in its constitution...
> > > Maybe I was remarking the need to socially overcome "sad
> > > passions", more than the really essential need to socially
> > > enpower "glad passions"... (in spnozian terms). There is
> > > no the first process without the second one. I know.
> > > I only don´t know how yet. Not exactly. I belive that
> > > many people alread have this know-how. I wish to learn...
> > > I can try. Now I have important references here, then
> > > I must organize myself. =)
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Oh. Please. I couldn't access the file... When I try, apears
> > > this message:
> > > You don't have permission to access
> > > /hold5yr/cook_leslie_s_200408_phd/cook_leslie_s_200408_phd.pdf on this
> > > server
> > > What can I do?
> > >
> > > Best, Achilles
> > > Umuarama, July, 12 2008.
> > >
> > > > From: smago@uga.edu> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: RE: [xmca]
RE:
> > > mental health> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:12:53 -0400> > Achilles,
again
> I
> > > speak largely from experience here. I think that there's a> balance
> > between
> > > attending to the neuroatypical issues (autism, bipolar> disorder,
etc.)
> > and
> > > attending to what's more strictly on the outside (other> people's
> > attitudes,
> > > the social arrangement of material surroundings that> channel thinking
> > about
> > > difference--see, e.g., accommodations for physically> handicapped
> people).
> > >
> > > > What we argue in the book excerpt, and what Leslie argues, is that
> it's>
> > > vitally important to create mediational contexts that both contribute
to
> > > new> settings (when there are wheelchair ramps, being wheelchair-bound
> > > appears to> all to be less of a handicap) and new ways for people to
> think
> > > about> themselves; or as some research suggests (see Damasio in our
> review
> > > below),> new ways for the brain to encode perceptions.> > This is not
to
> > say
> > > that some conditions do not require additional attention.> I take a
> > > medication for anxiety, and many people I know take antipsychotics,>
> > > depression medications, and so on. Undoubtedly there's some
> > > overprescription> of such meds, but many of us are glad to have the
> > option.>
> > > > One thing seems certain: We need more research in this area, so I
> > > strongly> encourage you to extend your investigation! Best,Peter> > >
>
> > > -----Original Message-----> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On> Behalf Of Achilles Delari
> Junior>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 7:36 PM> To: eXtended Mind, Culture,
> Activity>
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health> > > Thank you, very much
> Peter...>
> > >
> > > "Cook (2004) argues that relying simply on medication and counseling >
> is
> > > inadequate; that a broader environmental change that enables an >
> > > understanding and tolerance of difference, and gives young people >
> tools
> > > for managing their difference, is essential to helping young people >
> > > construct positive lives for themselves and in turn contribute to a
more
> >
> > > humane society."> > It's a beautiful and deep contribution. I really
> agree
> > > with this> orientation. > But, let me ask you: don’t you think that
> could
> > > exist a subtle distinction > between (a) “tolerance of difference
> related
> > to
> > > inclusive education” and > (b) “(self)tolerance of mental pain”? I
think
> > > about my own experience: > there are several moments in which I don't
> only
> > > accept my different > (dysfunctional) process, but desire
> overcome/master
> > > it... There are four > hyperbolic semiotic process that I recognize
(and
> > > struggle with) in BAD > (bipolar affective disorder):
> > > {paranoia<->megalomania} (mania) X > (depression)
> {self-moralist<->suicide
> > > ideation}. And I know that if social > others learn to comprehend and
> > accept
> > > these different semiotic ways of> means world and my own experience,
> > > changing "social situation" by> inter-mental mediation, my own
personal
> > > sense for this process can be > transformed. But, even so, a paranoid
> > > delirium not always can be only > accepted. If we could understand
> > > cultural-historical genetical roots of > mental pain, can we do
> something
> > to
> > > not only accept it, but even > overcome/replace its dysfunctional
> > > social/personal consequences?> Here, ariseesthe problem of
> > “psykhotekhnika”
> > > again, an approach that > not only explains psychic process as
function
> of
> > > social relations, but> socially > (and deliberately) constructs it
too…
> >
> > >
> > > Personally talking, seems to be not too easy to me to engage myself>
in
> > > social relations that could actually produce important functional >
(and
> > > structural-dynamical) changes in my life - even more, since I >
haven’t
> > > control about multiple social and biological determinations.> Things
> seems
> > > turns better or worse more in a casual than a determinist > way. But,
by
> > > epistemological principles and with an emotional need to hope,> I know
> > that
> > > social formation of mind is open to co-construction/>
> > > inter-constitution/co-existence (sobytie)… Along the years,
Vygotsky’s>
> > > claims > (to create new psychology and new means to make people’s life
> > > better) > make me take this problem of psychology applied to mental
> health
> > > as a kind> of personal and professional challenge to my own mental
> > > (cognitive/> affective) > resources… (but sorry about my "ecogentric
> > > language" here, righ now, i will> control me better in future)> > Oh,
> > sure.
> > > One more operational question. Let me ask: is this “dissertation > of
> > Leslie
> > > Cook” (“who looked at young women with depressive disorders > and the
> > > mediational means they use to make sense of their lives”) > available
in
> > any
> > > digital midia?> > Thank you very much, for this opportunity of
> > > inter-constitution. I must > organize my reading tasks now, there are
> very
> > > important contributions of all> > you here.> > Achilles> Umuarama,
July,
> > 11
> > > 2008.> > From: smago@uga.edu> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: RE:
> [xmca]
> > > RE:> mental health> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:24:52 -0400> > Achilles
> > asks:
> > > > Can> we really creat semiotical means to produce better mental
health
> to
> > > people?> Or this kind of a goal is a mistake like possible Vygotsky´s
or
> > > perhaps some> Vygotsky's followers' mistakes about 'social
> engeneering'?>
> > >
> > > I would say> YES to the first question. I'll take a shortcut and paste
> > > something in below> from a book I've coauthored about The Discourse of
> > > Character Education> (Erlbaum, 2005, with Joel Taxel). It draws on the
> > > dissertation of Leslie> Cook, who looked at young women with
depressive
> > > disorders and the> mediational means they use to make sense of their
> > lives.
> > > My apologies for> the length of the following excerpt.> > > Mental
> Health
> > > and Character> Education> We have briefly expressed our concern that
the
> > > issue of mental> health is virtually absent from discussions about
> > character
> > > education. Yet> many students who come to school with a mental health
> > > problems are treated> as discipline problems of the sort measured as
> > indexes
> > > of low character in> the proposals we have studied. We believe that it
> is
> > > important for any> character education initiative to recognize and
> account
> > > for mental health in> its conception of good character, both for those
> > with
> > > nonnormative makeups> and those with whom they interact.> Mental
health
> is
> > > the elephant in the> character education closet. The World Health
> > > Organization (2001) reports> that about 7.5 million children in the U.
> > > S.—12% of all children under> 18—have mental disorders, nearly half of
> > which
> > > lead to serious disability.> Jamison (1997) found that 20% of high
> school
> > > students had seriously> considered committing suicide during the year
> > prior
> > > to his study, with most> having drawn up a suicide plan; suicide is
the
> #3
> > > cause of death of> teenagers between 15 and 19 years of age, often
> > following
> > > from a depressive> disorder. Yet most parents and teachers feel that
> > mental
> > > health issues are> poorly addressed in schools (Dowling & Pound, 1994;
> > > Rappaport & Carolla,> 1999), many teachers have little understanding
of
> > how
> > > to recognize or> respond to students with mental health problems
> (Madison,
> > > 1996), and only> recently has mental health been identified as a
reason
> to
> > > develop an> Individual Education Plan (IEP) for students.> These
> > widespread>
> > > misunderstandings have resulted in many such students being regarded
as>
> > > troublesome or lacking character in schools. Yet, as reporter Anne
Imse>
> > > (1999) wrote following the Columbine school shooting tragedy, > Even
> > teens>
> > > as dangerously troubled as Eric Harris stand a good chance of
slipping>
> > > through the cracks in Jefferson County and across Colorado, failing to
> > get>
> > > badly needed mental health care. There are serious roadblocks to
> getting>
> > > treatment for sick kids [including]> • State prohibitions against law>
> > > enforcement agencies telling schools about a problem kid unless
there's
> a>
> > > conviction; > • Schools worrying about being saddled with psychiatric
> > bills>
> > > if they recommend treatment, or even being sued; > • Not enough money>
> > > earmarked for counselors and counseling for the state's youth. > So,
> even>
> > > though Jefferson County school officials have become more sensitive to
> > > kids'> mental states . . . they remain hamstrung about arranging
> > treatment.
> > > "We> have no place to go with them," said Clark Bencomo, a counselor
at
> > > Green> Mountain High School. "All we can do is suspend or expel." "We
> are>
> > > oftentimes reduced to putting a kid in a place where they're safe, but
> > it's>
> > > not the right program," added Kay Cessna, intervention services
director
> > > for> Jefferson County schools. "There are not enough places." [One
> parent
> > of
> > > a> child with disabilities complained], "They don't have the time,
the>
> > > manpower, and they don't get it.">
> > > (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0516ment2.shtml) > Cook
> > > (2004)> finds this problem occurring in other states as well,
reporting
> > > that> students with mental health problems are often put in special
> > > education> programs or disciplined when they act out, either as a
> > > consequence of their> makeup (e.g., a child with Tourette’s syndrome’s
> > > involuntary profanity) or> in response to the taunting they face from
> > their
> > > peers.> Yet a mental health> professional would surely argue that the
> > > problem is not a lack of character> and the solution is not to punish
> > > students with mental health problems.> Rather, a broader understanding
> of
> > > mental health among students and> faculty—the sort of attention to
> climate
> > > we found in the states from the> Upper Midwest—would contribute to a
> more
> > > sympathetic and less punitive> environment for such students in
school.
> > > Indeed, Damasio (1994) argues in> his somatic-marker theory against
the
> > > classic Cartesian mind/body binary,> instead positing that brain and
> body
> > > are integrally related not just to one> another but to the
environment.
> A
> > > change in the environment, he finds, may> contribute to changes in how
a
> > > person processes new information (cf. Luria,> 1979; Pert, 1997); that
> is,
> > in
> > > response to developments in the surroundings,> the brain will encode
> > > perceptions in new kinds of ways. > Conceivably, then,> changes in
> school
> > > climate can contribute to the emotional well-being of> students whose
> > mental
> > > makeup falls outside the normal range. The therapy for> such students
is
> > > still widely debated. While medication and counseling have> benefited
> many
> > > with nonnormative makeups in their relationships with others,> the
> medical
> > > model has been criticized because it assumes that a normative> mental
> > state
> > > is best for all. This criticism frequently comes up in debates> about
> > > whether medications for Attention Deficit Disorder are prescribed too>
> > often
> > > for any students who have difficulty focusing in school. Some argue>
> that
> > > prescribing such medications is designed more to increase the comfort>
> > > levels of those around such students than to help those students>
> > > themselves.> The jury is still out concerning the question of whether
> > > people> with such diagnoses are sick and in need of medicine. Cook
> (2004)
> > > argues> that relying simply on medication and counseling is
inadequate;
> > that
> > > a> broader environmental change that enables an understanding and
> > tolerance
> > > of> difference, and gives young people tools for managing their
> > difference,
> > > is> essential to helping young people construct positive lives for
> > > themselves> and in turn contribute to a more humane society. Taking a
> > > punitive approach> to difference, she argues, is regressive and only
> makes
> > > life more fragile> for those characterized as different and more
> > emotionally
> > > and cognitively> unhealthy for those who surround them.> >>
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Received on Sun Jul 13 21:21 PDT 2008