RE: [xmca] RE: mental health

You are welcome, Achilles! The questions you pose are very important and
complex. Since "what is important is...what man (person) is sick with this
disease," it seems that it is up to the individual personality to either
accept the influence of the society and (in most cases) compensate and
develop, or reject. However, when the very mechanism of decision making is
in doubt (as can be found among schizophrenics), it is also doubtful as to
which way the development of such personality will proceed.

Good luck with your research!

Cheers,
Michael.

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:44 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health

Michael,I must (re)read Vygotsky's texts that I have here, about
schizophrenia.I find only 2 texts. "Thinking in Schizophrenia" (1931)
(published in VygotskyReader) and "The psychology of schizophrenia" (1933)
(published inSoviet Psychology, 1987, p.72-77)... I don't know yet about
this problemof "normal" personality (leachnost)... Until now I was thinking
in somethinglike Puzirei's interpretation: “It is important, as
it formulates its basic thought T. Mann, to know not
with what illness man (person) is sick, but - what man (person) is sick
with this disease.”Then, I wondered that person, and social personality was
a more complextotality than the illness itself. That illness only can be
understood in itsrelation with more complex entire dynamic-structural sistem
of higher mentalfuntions, related to consciousness, sense, personality, and
world view.If I am a schizophrenic person, maybe I can´t let to be
schizophrenic, but to be schizophrenic is not all that I am as a person,
socially constructed...I´m even a father, a son, a worker, a student, have
my passions, feelings...I think that we can't be over-otimistic. But, being
realistic, can we helpa schizophrenic/bipolar/etc person to be, even so, a
healthful person,even not all the time? How much (and essentialy by what
ways) social/semiotic relations can contribute in the genesis of
functional/dysfunctional arrange of psychic systems of person who has such
diseases? I don´t know...I had associated personality with sense (smisl) and
world view (mirovozrenie). Then I supposed that to a person can to have a
personality, necessarily HMF have to emerges. A "schizophrenic personality"
would be, in my way to think, a historical-cultural formation, overall. This
doesn't means forget the dialetic relations between neurofunctional
substract of mental fuctions and the semiotic (extra-cortical) mediation
divices, culturally provided. I´m confuse in my associations. I will try to
think better. Thank you very much.Achilles,Umuarama, July 13, 2008.

> From: mglevykh@telus.net
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 12:25:57 -0700
>
> Achilles,
>
> Although being quite often over-optimistic, talking about personality,
> Vygotsky was convinced that we cannot develop "normal" leachnost in a
> post-schizophrenic person. Our goal is to facilitate development of a
> "schizophrenic" leachnost - whatever it might mean.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 9:43 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
>
>
> Peter,
>
> I understand, but I ask you: it can allow space for higher mental
funcitons
> by stoping biochemical elementary process that colapses intire system of
> psychic funtions, but it can't strictly generate meaninful/semantic
process
> that
> constitute consciousness ideological organization, personality structure
and
> world view. Can it? Maybe the answer seems to be obvious... But, if I take
> Lithium, Clorpromazina and Sertralina, my sleep and anxiety turns more
> controlable, and my mood more euthimic, and so on, then it allow space
> for any kind of productive imagination and thinking, that can actually
> occurs
> or not... but my entire thinking system of higher mental funtions seems to
> be
> organized by other semantic process too, socially, culturally generated -
> Then I agree that we need a "a balance between attending to the
> neuroatypical
> issues (autism, bipolar disorder, etc.) and attending to what's more
> strictly
> on the outside (other people's attitudes, the social arrangement of
material
>
> surroundings that channel thinking about difference--see, e.g.,
> accommodations for
> physically handicapped people)." Even so, my curiosity is too about the
> possibility of generate social-cultural semiotic resources to promote
> semantic
> process that (re)organizes intire personality, consciousness,
> dinamic-structural
> sistems, in order to people's (maybe) better using of highter mental
> functions
> that medications can allow space for. Five years of psychoanalisys was not
> very productive to me, for instance, I wonder if could be any third way
> beyond
> mentalistic and naturalistic aproachs in psychoterapy as well as in
general
> psychology and in educational psychology researchs and social practices.
> But, I'm just thinking by associations, I have to study very much - to
read,
> to
>
> maintain atentional focus, motivation, an so on. Valsiner and Van der
Veer's
>
> claim, that Vygotsky in practice worked more in clinical setting, makes me

> wonder: how he actually did this? Why we don't have much information about
> this practice?
> ...
> Thank you very much.
> Achilles,
> Umuarama, July 13, 2008.
>
> > From: smago@uga.edu
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:43:35 -0400
> >
> > My sense is that medications can allow space for higher mental
functions,
> > which might otherwise be choked off by panic attacks and other
responses.
> >
> > Peter Smagorinsky
> > The University of Georgia
> > 125 Aderhold Hall
> > Athens, GA 30602
> > smago@uga.edu/phone:706-542-4507
> > http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
On
> > Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:05 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> >
> >
> > Peter, thank you, very much.
> >
> > I strongly agree with your position, not only agree but
> > I'm learning a lot with you. I wonder that medication can not
> > directlly affect highter mental funtions, not in semantic/
> > ideologic organization of conciousness. I agree with
> > Volochinov/Bakhtin's postition (in his wor "Freudism")
> > that human conflicts are ideological/not strictly biological
> > in its constitution...
> > Maybe I was remarking the need to socially overcome "sad
> > passions", more than the really essential need to socially
> > enpower "glad passions"... (in spnozian terms). There is
> > no the first process without the second one. I know.
> > I only don´t know how yet. Not exactly. I belive that
> > many people alread have this know-how. I wish to learn...
> > I can try. Now I have important references here, then
> > I must organize myself. =)
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Oh. Please. I couldn't access the file... When I try, apears
> > this message:
> > You don't have permission to access
> > /hold5yr/cook_leslie_s_200408_phd/cook_leslie_s_200408_phd.pdf on this
> > server
> > What can I do?
> >
> > Best, Achilles
> > Umuarama, July, 12 2008.
> >
> > > From: smago@uga.edu> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE:
> > mental health> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:12:53 -0400> > Achilles, again
I
> > speak largely from experience here. I think that there's a> balance
> between
> > attending to the neuroatypical issues (autism, bipolar> disorder, etc.)
> and
> > attending to what's more strictly on the outside (other> people's
> attitudes,
> > the social arrangement of material surroundings that> channel thinking
> about
> > difference--see, e.g., accommodations for physically> handicapped
people).
> >
> > > What we argue in the book excerpt, and what Leslie argues, is that
it's>
> > vitally important to create mediational contexts that both contribute to
> > new> settings (when there are wheelchair ramps, being wheelchair-bound
> > appears to> all to be less of a handicap) and new ways for people to
think
> > about> themselves; or as some research suggests (see Damasio in our
review
> > below),> new ways for the brain to encode perceptions.> > This is not to
> say
> > that some conditions do not require additional attention.> I take a
> > medication for anxiety, and many people I know take antipsychotics,>
> > depression medications, and so on. Undoubtedly there's some
> > overprescription> of such meds, but many of us are glad to have the
> option.>
> > > One thing seems certain: We need more research in this area, so I
> > strongly> encourage you to extend your investigation! Best,Peter> > > >
> > -----Original Message-----> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On> Behalf Of Achilles Delari
Junior>
> > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 7:36 PM> To: eXtended Mind, Culture,
Activity>
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health> > > Thank you, very much
Peter...>
> >
> > "Cook (2004) argues that relying simply on medication and counseling >
is
> > inadequate; that a broader environmental change that enables an >
> > understanding and tolerance of difference, and gives young people >
tools
> > for managing their difference, is essential to helping young people >
> > construct positive lives for themselves and in turn contribute to a more
>
> > humane society."> > It's a beautiful and deep contribution. I really
agree
> > with this> orientation. > But, let me ask you: don’t you think that
could
> > exist a subtle distinction > between (a) “tolerance of difference
related
> to
> > inclusive education” and > (b) “(self)tolerance of mental pain”? I think
> > about my own experience: > there are several moments in which I don't
only
> > accept my different > (dysfunctional) process, but desire
overcome/master
> > it... There are four > hyperbolic semiotic process that I recognize (and
> > struggle with) in BAD > (bipolar affective disorder):
> > {paranoia<->megalomania} (mania) X > (depression)
{self-moralist<->suicide
> > ideation}. And I know that if social > others learn to comprehend and
> accept
> > these different semiotic ways of> means world and my own experience,
> > changing "social situation" by> inter-mental mediation, my own personal
> > sense for this process can be > transformed. But, even so, a paranoid
> > delirium not always can be only > accepted. If we could understand
> > cultural-historical genetical roots of > mental pain, can we do
something
> to
> > not only accept it, but even > overcome/replace its dysfunctional
> > social/personal consequences?> Here, ariseesthe problem of
> “psykhotekhnika”
> > again, an approach that > not only explains psychic process as function
of
> > social relations, but> socially > (and deliberately) constructs it too…
>
> >
> > Personally talking, seems to be not too easy to me to engage myself> in
> > social relations that could actually produce important functional > (and
> > structural-dynamical) changes in my life - even more, since I > haven’t
> > control about multiple social and biological determinations.> Things
seems
> > turns better or worse more in a casual than a determinist > way. But, by
> > epistemological principles and with an emotional need to hope,> I know
> that
> > social formation of mind is open to co-construction/>
> > inter-constitution/co-existence (sobytie)… Along the years, Vygotsky’s>
> > claims > (to create new psychology and new means to make people’s life
> > better) > make me take this problem of psychology applied to mental
health
> > as a kind> of personal and professional challenge to my own mental
> > (cognitive/> affective) > resources… (but sorry about my "ecogentric
> > language" here, righ now, i will> control me better in future)> > Oh,
> sure.
> > One more operational question. Let me ask: is this “dissertation > of
> Leslie
> > Cook” (“who looked at young women with depressive disorders > and the
> > mediational means they use to make sense of their lives”) > available in
> any
> > digital midia?> > Thank you very much, for this opportunity of
> > inter-constitution. I must > organize my reading tasks now, there are
very
> > important contributions of all> > you here.> > Achilles> Umuarama, July,
> 11
> > 2008.> > From: smago@uga.edu> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: RE:
[xmca]
> > RE:> mental health> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:24:52 -0400> > Achilles
> asks:
> > > Can> we really creat semiotical means to produce better mental health
to
> > people?> Or this kind of a goal is a mistake like possible Vygotsky´s or
> > perhaps some> Vygotsky's followers' mistakes about 'social
engeneering'?>
> >
> > I would say> YES to the first question. I'll take a shortcut and paste
> > something in below> from a book I've coauthored about The Discourse of
> > Character Education> (Erlbaum, 2005, with Joel Taxel). It draws on the
> > dissertation of Leslie> Cook, who looked at young women with depressive
> > disorders and the> mediational means they use to make sense of their
> lives.
> > My apologies for> the length of the following excerpt.> > > Mental
Health
> > and Character> Education> We have briefly expressed our concern that the
> > issue of mental> health is virtually absent from discussions about
> character
> > education. Yet> many students who come to school with a mental health
> > problems are treated> as discipline problems of the sort measured as
> indexes
> > of low character in> the proposals we have studied. We believe that it
is
> > important for any> character education initiative to recognize and
account
> > for mental health in> its conception of good character, both for those
> with
> > nonnormative makeups> and those with whom they interact.> Mental health
is
> > the elephant in the> character education closet. The World Health
> > Organization (2001) reports> that about 7.5 million children in the U.
> > S.—12% of all children under> 18—have mental disorders, nearly half of
> which
> > lead to serious disability.> Jamison (1997) found that 20% of high
school
> > students had seriously> considered committing suicide during the year
> prior
> > to his study, with most> having drawn up a suicide plan; suicide is the
#3
> > cause of death of> teenagers between 15 and 19 years of age, often
> following
> > from a depressive> disorder. Yet most parents and teachers feel that
> mental
> > health issues are> poorly addressed in schools (Dowling & Pound, 1994;
> > Rappaport & Carolla,> 1999), many teachers have little understanding of
> how
> > to recognize or> respond to students with mental health problems
(Madison,
> > 1996), and only> recently has mental health been identified as a reason
to
> > develop an> Individual Education Plan (IEP) for students.> These
> widespread>
> > misunderstandings have resulted in many such students being regarded as>
> > troublesome or lacking character in schools. Yet, as reporter Anne Imse>
> > (1999) wrote following the Columbine school shooting tragedy, > Even
> teens>
> > as dangerously troubled as Eric Harris stand a good chance of slipping>
> > through the cracks in Jefferson County and across Colorado, failing to
> get>
> > badly needed mental health care. There are serious roadblocks to
getting>
> > treatment for sick kids [including]> • State prohibitions against law>
> > enforcement agencies telling schools about a problem kid unless there's
a>
> > conviction; > • Schools worrying about being saddled with psychiatric
> bills>
> > if they recommend treatment, or even being sued; > • Not enough money>
> > earmarked for counselors and counseling for the state's youth. > So,
even>
> > though Jefferson County school officials have become more sensitive to
> > kids'> mental states . . . they remain hamstrung about arranging
> treatment.
> > "We> have no place to go with them," said Clark Bencomo, a counselor at
> > Green> Mountain High School. "All we can do is suspend or expel." "We
are>
> > oftentimes reduced to putting a kid in a place where they're safe, but
> it's>
> > not the right program," added Kay Cessna, intervention services director
> > for> Jefferson County schools. "There are not enough places." [One
parent
> of
> > a> child with disabilities complained], "They don't have the time, the>
> > manpower, and they don't get it.">
> > (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0516ment2.shtml) > Cook
> > (2004)> finds this problem occurring in other states as well, reporting
> > that> students with mental health problems are often put in special
> > education> programs or disciplined when they act out, either as a
> > consequence of their> makeup (e.g., a child with Tourette’s syndrome’s
> > involuntary profanity) or> in response to the taunting they face from
> their
> > peers.> Yet a mental health> professional would surely argue that the
> > problem is not a lack of character> and the solution is not to punish
> > students with mental health problems.> Rather, a broader understanding
of
> > mental health among students and> faculty—the sort of attention to
climate
> > we found in the states from the> Upper Midwest—would contribute to a
more
> > sympathetic and less punitive> environment for such students in school.
> > Indeed, Damasio (1994) argues in> his somatic-marker theory against the
> > classic Cartesian mind/body binary,> instead positing that brain and
body
> > are integrally related not just to one> another but to the environment.
A
> > change in the environment, he finds, may> contribute to changes in how a
> > person processes new information (cf. Luria,> 1979; Pert, 1997); that
is,
> in
> > response to developments in the surroundings,> the brain will encode
> > perceptions in new kinds of ways. > Conceivably, then,> changes in
school
> > climate can contribute to the emotional well-being of> students whose
> mental
> > makeup falls outside the normal range. The therapy for> such students is
> > still widely debated. While medication and counseling have> benefited
many
> > with nonnormative makeups in their relationships with others,> the
medical
> > model has been criticized because it assumes that a normative> mental
> state
> > is best for all. This criticism frequently comes up in debates> about
> > whether medications for Attention Deficit Disorder are prescribed too>
> often
> > for any students who have difficulty focusing in school. Some argue>
that
> > prescribing such medications is designed more to increase the comfort>
> > levels of those around such students than to help those students>
> > themselves.> The jury is still out concerning the question of whether
> > people> with such diagnoses are sick and in need of medicine. Cook
(2004)
> > argues> that relying simply on medication and counseling is inadequate;
> that
> > a> broader environmental change that enables an understanding and
> tolerance
> > of> difference, and gives young people tools for managing their
> difference,
> > is> essential to helping young people construct positive lives for
> > themselves> and in turn contribute to a more humane society. Taking a
> > punitive approach> to difference, she argues, is regressive and only
makes
> > life more fragile> for those characterized as different and more
> emotionally
> > and cognitively> unhealthy for those who surround them.> >>
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Received on Sun Jul 13 20:15 PDT 2008