Re: [xmca] Vygotsky-text-context-thinking

Sorry, folks I was not thinking,
Vera
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 10:34:48 -0600
  "Vera P John-Steiner" <vygotsky@unm.edu> wrote:
> O
>
> Dearest Cathrene,
> We are in Berkeley, and I love the vegetation, the
>hills, the view and all the fruit. I still have some
> friends here and Reuben has his son and family. We leave
>for the East on Saturday. Are you done with your
> summer teaching? Perhaps we can get together next week,
>or have, at least, a nice long talk. My cell phone
>is)(5050577-9684.
> I think of you a lot,
> love, Vera
>
>
> Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:08:06 -0400
>
>
>
> Cathrene Connery <cconnery@ithaca.edu> wrote:
>> Hi Eric and Shirley,
>> Thanks for your eloquent discussion. It is so
>>validating to read your voices. Can you clarify which
>>genre of literacy you are speaking of? Humans have been
>>"reading" and "writing" for thousands of years. From the
>>stars in navigational paths to the symptoms of illness,
>>the flash of colored fabric as a signal for battle to the
>>repetition of movement in dance, we cannot forget
>>multi-modal genres nor what is being called 21rst century
>>literacies (in contrast to today's previous discussion on
>>ISI and academic journals). The cultural-historical
>>notion of cognitive pluralism extends Vygotsky's narrow
>>view of the "written word". Just some fun ideas to play
>>around with on a muggy night in Ithaca!
>> Best wishes,
>> Cathrene
>>
>> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>>>
>>> Shirley:
>>>
>>> Literacy and its impact upon human development is a
>>>fascinating subject
>>> indeed. I am one who falls short of placing it as THE
>>>tool that impacts
>>> the development of higher psychological functions more
>>>then any other
>>> semiotic process structure. Such as the process
>>>structure of understanding
>>> that sunrise is the beginning of a new day and a full
>>>moon represents the
>>> passing of 28 days. Therefore, for me, LSV is a great
>>>starting point in
>>> understanding human development but his theories place
>>>far too much
>>> emphasis on literacy and in education in general he
>>>believed social
>>> engineering would erase many of the ills of society.
>>> Xtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>> cc:
>>> bcc:
>>> Subject: [xmca] Vygotsky-text-context-thinking
>>> Shirley Franklin <s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com>
>>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> 07/08/2008 09:08 PM CET
>>> Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>> <font
>>> size=-1></font>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Eric,
>>>
>>> I agree with Vygotsky!
>>>
>>> I am fascinated that he wrote this because I am/was
>>>writing a rather
>>> abortive PhD on precisely this theme.
>>>
>>> I was/am interested in applying a Vygotskian approach to
>>>learning (of
>>> scientific concepts) to learning the academic literacy
>>>"frames" that
>>> are required within and across the different disciplines
>>>and within
>>> the range of writing required - reports, essays, etc. ie
>>>applying
>>> Vygotsky to e Shirley-style Genre Pedagogy, drawing on
>>>Vygotsky and
>>> Halliday et al, both in different ways.
>>>
>>> But I also agree with those like Scribner and Cole and
>>>Street when
>>> they say that writing is shaped by and reflects culture
>>>. However I
>>> agree with Vy when he says that the process of writing
>>>itself
>>> develops thought. ie as I write this, it scaffolds my
>>>thinking about
>>> the issue. You asking me the question, and me having to
>>>reply in the
>>> form of a Shirley-email (mode) within the XMCA context
>>>(field and
>>> mode) makes me further develop my ideas on the topic.
>>>
>>> I admit that when I noticed that I was replying to the
>>>xmca list I
>>> was somewhat more nervous, and will re-edit this more
>>>than I would
>>> have done (tenor) because it is going to the whole list.
>>>Does that
>>> process mean I refine my thoughts even more???
>>>
>>> I hope this makes sense to you!
>>>
>>> Shirley
>>>
>>> On 8 Jul 2008, at 20:51, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Shirley:
>>>>
>>>> The best reference for this is A.R. Luria's 1976
>>>>publication,
>>>> "Cognitive
>>>> development: its cultural and social foundations.' IN
>>>>this book Luria
>>>> describes the literaqcy studies conducted by Luria and
>>>>Vygotsky.
>>>> Unfortunately this was during a bout of bad health for
>>>>Vygotsky and I
>>>> believe LSV was not on site for the entirity of the
>>>>study. As a
>>>> result of
>>>> the data Vygotsky theorized that literacy was the key to
>>>>humans
>>>> developing
>>>> higher psychological functions. This has since been
>>>>discounted by the
>>>> cross-cultural studies conducted by Cole, Glick,
>>>>Scrobner and others.
>>>>
>>>> what do you think?
>>>> eric
>>>>
>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>>><xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>> cc:
>>>> bcc:
>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotskyan approach to
>>>>mental health -
>>>> socio-genetic roots of mental diseases and
>>>>psychotherapeutic semiotic
>>>> mediation.
>>>> Shirley Franklin <s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com>
>>>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> 07/08/2008 10:17 AM CET
>>>> Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>>> <font
>>>> size=-1></font>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eric,
>>>>
>>>> I would be interested to hear more about what you
>>>>consider to be
>>>> Vygotsky's misunderstandings of literacy and its effect
>>>>on higher
>>>> mental functions.
>>>> As far as I am aware he didn't write much more than a
>>>>few pages on
>>>> this. What he wrote was rather interesting.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think is the problem?
>>>>
>>>> Shirley
>>>>
>>>> On 7 Jul 2008, at 14:47, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Peter;
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe as a consumer of mental health services you
>>>>>fall under
>>>>> the axiom
>>>>> "highly qualified" to discuss the issue. I believe
>>>>>Vygotsky's
>>>>> error in his
>>>>> theories on defectology are similar to his
>>>>>misunderstanding of
>>>>> literacy and
>>>>> its effect on higher mental functions. My humble
>>>>>opinion places
>>>>> this error
>>>>> in Vygotsky's marriage to marxism and the march towards
>>>>>the 'better
>>>>> man',
>>>>> but that is certainly a subject for another time.
>>>>> Whether there
>>>>> be an
>>>>> error in theorizing or not Vygotsky's contribution to
>>>>>the study of
>>>>> special
>>>>> education is HUGE. If one thinks of the augmentation
>>>>>utilized
>>>>> these days
>>>>> by students who have disabilities it is specifically
>>>>>what Vygotsky
>>>>> viewed
>>>>> as a broadening of the social mileau and semiotic
>>>>>offerings. I
>>>>> have many
>>>>> more thoughts on the subject but time is short and
>>>>>usually people
>>>>> have
>>>>> other things, such as the new XMCA article, to discuss.
>>>>>
>>>>> eric
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Peter
>>>>> Smagorinsky" To:
>>>>> "'eXtended
>>>>> Mind, Culture, Activity'" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> <smago@uga.edu> cc:
>>>>> Sent by: Subject:
>>>>>RE: [xmca]
>>>>> Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic
>>>>> xmca-bounces@web roots
>>>>> of mental
>>>>> diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.
>>>>> er.ucsd.edu
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 07/06/2008 07:24
>>>>> AM
>>>>> Please respond
>>>>> to "eXtended
>>>>> Mind, Culture,
>>>>> Activity"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have some very tentative thoughts on Vygotsky's
>>>>>approach to mental
>>>>> health, extrapolated from what I've read in the
>>>>>Cambridge
>>>>> Companion to
>>>>> Vygotsky, particularly the chapter by Kozulin and
>>>>>Gindis. I should
>>>>> qualify
>>>>> my comments by saying that I have no scholarly
>>>>>credentials for
>>>>> making this
>>>>> interpretation; mental health is not my field of study.
>>>>>At the same
>>>>> time,
>>>>> I've personally dealt with mental health issues;
>>>>>Asperger's, high
>>>>> anxiety,
>>>>> tourette's, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and other
>>>>>neuroatypical
>>>>> makeups
>>>>> have run in my family for at least 3 generations,
>>>>>including through
>>>>> me. So
>>>>> I do have a vested interest in this discussion, if
>>>>>little in the
>>>>> way of
>>>>> formal knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>> The field of defectology had origins in a mechanistic
>>>>>mindset that
>>>>> viewed
>>>>> non-normative children as having flaws that could be
>>>>>repaired in
>>>>> the manner
>>>>> of a broken-down car engine. Rather than taking the
>>>>>mechanistic
>>>>> approach
>>>>> that children with special needs were defective and
>>>>>could be fixed,
>>>>> Vygotsky viewed the question of their condition "as a
>>>>> sociocultural rather
>>>>> than an organic or individual developmental phenomenon"
>>>>>(p. CCV,
>>>>> 334).
>>>>> Kozulin and Gindis find that
>>>>> "The essence of Vygotsky's approach to remedial
>>>>>education is in
>>>>> addressing
>>>>> the secondary disability, that is, by countering the
>>>>>negative social
>>>>> consequences of the primary disability. Vygotsky
>>>>>believed that
>>>>> physical and
>>>>> mental impairment could be overcome by creating
>>>>>alternative but
>>>>> essentially
>>>>> equivalent roads for cultural development. By acquiring
>>>>>the
>>>>> psychological
>>>>> tools, disabled children transform their natural
>>>>>abilities into
>>>>> higher
>>>>> mental functions as do their nondisabled peers." (CCV,
>>>>>p. 345)
>>>>>
>>>>> To Vygotsky, rather than "fixing" the "defect" in the
>>>>>child,
>>>>> an educator
>>>>> should strive to minimize or eliminate any environmental
>>>>>factors
>>>>> that could
>>>>> amplify the effects of the original point of concern. I
>>>>>imagine
>>>>> that this
>>>>> effort might focus on diminishing whatever stigmas
>>>>>follow from being
>>>>> different; that is, it might attempt to educate people
>>>>>in the
>>>>> setting about
>>>>> how to view those with non-normative physical or mental
>>>>>makeups and
>>>>> treat
>>>>> them respectfully and in light of their potential. A
>>>>>second
>>>>> approach would
>>>>> be to broaden the sign-and-tool systems available for
>>>>>mediation.
>>>>> Again,
>>>>> this tack would require changes in the environment so
>>>>>that new
>>>>> tools become
>>>>> sanctioned, and new approaches to assessment become
>>>>>available to
>>>>> allow for
>>>>> alternative paths to performance.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would guess that he would regard "mental illness" the
>>>>>same way he
>>>>> would
>>>>> view other forms of "disability": not so much as
>>>>>defective parts
>>>>> that need
>>>>> repair, but as non-normative ways of being that call for
>>>>>new activity
>>>>> systems.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (12) From Achilles
>>>>>
>>>>> Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic
>>>>>roots of mental
>>>>> diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.
>>>>>
>>>>> "He (Vygotsky) did not believe in meaningless defect or
>>>>> retrogression:
>>>>> since the construction of the human mind follows a
>>>>>certain pattern,
>>>>> its
>>>>> destruction also cannot be arbitrary and therefore
>>>>>reveals specific
>>>>> rupture
>>>>> lines characteristic of the formation of the human
>>>>>psyche. That is
>>>>> why
>>>>> observations of the acquisition of language in the
>>>>>deaf-mute, concept
>>>>> formation in schizophrenics, and the rehabilitation of
>>>>>aphasics
>>>>> were for
>>>>> Vygotsky no less a part of developmental psychology than
>>>>>the
>>>>> sensory-motor
>>>>> behavior of the two-year old." (Alex Kozuin, Vygotsky's
>>>>> psychology ? a
>>>>> biography of ideas, 1990 ? p. 195)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to study Vygotsky´s theoretical contributions to
>>>>>Mental
>>>>> Health: (1)
>>>>> mental diseases theoretical and methodological
>>>>>comprehension; and (2)
>>>>> therapeutics dialogical practices, in a
>>>>>cultural-historical
>>>>> approach. And I
>>>>> asked here on the existence of English translation from
>>>>> "Проблема развития
>>>>> и распада высших психических
>>>>> функций", because I wish to translate it to
>>>>> Portuguese but not if it exists in English. Mike Cole
>>>>>suggests
>>>>> reading
>>>>> Luria, and Akhutina and Rodina. Very important
>>>>>suggestions, I will
>>>>> study
>>>>> Akhutina and Rodina, and search another references by
>>>>>Luria than
>>>>> the ones I
>>>>> have here (more in "classical science" style, than in
>>>>>the
>>>>> "romantic
>>>>> science" books, maybe the ones what I need, I don't
>>>>>know). But,
>>>>> what more
>>>>> can you suggest to me about the "vygotskyan approach to
>>>>>mental
>>>>> health -
>>>>> socio-genetic roots of mental diseases and
>>>>>psychotherapeutic semiotic
>>>>> mediation"?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much.
>>>>>
>>>>> Achilles,
>>>>> Umuarama, July 5, 2008.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (11) From Mike
>>>>> Luria-- Also check out Akhutina and Rodina article at
>>>>>LCHC. And ask
>>>>> on XMCA
>>>>> to see what comes up/mike
>>>>> (10) From Achilles
>>>>> I remember that there was a vygotskyan metaphorthat 'a
>>>>>building
>>>>> does not
>>>>> tumbling down, by anotherlaws that ones it was
>>>>>constructed' (not
>>>>> exactly
>>>>> this words,I quote by core)- maybe quoted by Kozulin, I
>>>>>don't
>>>>> exactlyremember high now. Seems to me a important
>>>>>methodological
>>>>> principle,
>>>>> but I haven't seen much empirical work raised in it, in
>>>>>mental health
>>>>> historical-cultural research, if you could help me with
>>>>>this to, I
>>>>> will be
>>>>> very greatfull too.Thank you again, very
>>>>>much.Achilles,Umuarama, 04
>>>>> July,
>>>>> 2008.
>>>>> (9) From Mike
>>>>> Yes, i firmly believe that.very important.mike
>>>>> (8) From Achilles
>>>>> Thanks...I had writed about my interest in othermail
>>>>>before read
>>>>> this.Do
>>>>> you think that 'raspada (desintegration) problem'can
>>>>>help us
>>>>> understand
>>>>> some questions to mentalhealth in historical-cultural
>>>>> approach?Achilles,Umuarama, July 4, 2008
>>>>>
>>>>> (7) From Bella
>>>>> Why italian? I sent you the Russian text- here it is
>>>>>once
>>>>> more.Mike, we
>>>>> just recently discussed problems of translation. If you
>>>>>want it tobe
>>>>> published in English, it would be reasonable to use the
>>>>>original
>>>>> Russiantext.Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>>>>> (6) From Mike
>>>>> Whoa!! here is the article for Poalo in Italian!! I have
>>>>>sent to
>>>>> Pentti
>>>>> fortranslation in JREEP/mikePS-- Thanks BorisЛегче найти
>>>>> на итальянском:Il
>>>>> problema dello sviluppo e della disintegrazione delle
>>>>>funzioni
>>>>> psichichesuperiori // La psicologia sovietica 1917-1936.
>>>>>Roma: Edit.
>>>>> Riuniti, 1976.P. 330-347.С уважением,
>>>>> (5) From Mike
>>>>> No need to apologize for your English at all,
>>>>>Achilles!You provide
>>>>> a great
>>>>> reference in Kozulin's book that should be accessible to
>>>>>readers of
>>>>> XMCA,
>>>>> and in the article from Vygotsky reader.
>>>>>Abrigado!:-)mike
>>>>>
>>>>> (4) From Achilles
>>>>> Joao, Eugene and Mike,
>>>>> The original text, in Russian we have in Russian
>>>>>Wikipedia, but the
>>>>> link
>>>>> seems to be broken. But I have downloded it before.
>>>>>(atached here)
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder that the 'raspada' (disintegration/decay)
>>>>>problem is
>>>>> related not
>>>>> only to the defectology matters, but to the
>>>>>pathopsychology's too
>>>>> (like
>>>>> schizophrenia and Pick's disease
>>>>> - Kozulin presents this question in 'Vygotsky - a
>>>>>biography of
>>>>> ideas' (cap.
>>>>> 6 ? Mind in Trouble - section Psychopathology and
>>>>>Regression); And
>>>>> there is
>>>>> a Vygotsky´s article in the Vygotsky Reader about
>>>>>'Though in
>>>>> Schizophrenia'
>>>>> (I translate to Portuguese); the text about Pick's
>>>>>disease by
>>>>> Vygotsky,
>>>>> Samukhin and Bierenbaum 'K voprosu o dementsii pri
>>>>>bolezni Pika -
>>>>> klinitcheskoe i eksperimen- tal'no issledovanie' we find
>>>>>only in
>>>>> Russian
>>>>> too, Joao obtains it here in the list and pass to me),
>>>>>but I don't
>>>>> know
>>>>> yet. I can try translate the Russian 'Problema razvitia
>>>>>i raspada
>>>>> vyschikh
>>>>> psikhitcheskikh funktsii', aided by dictionaries and
>>>>>another on-line
>>>>> translation tools, trying to learn Russian psychological
>>>>> vocabulary, but if
>>>>> Eugene did it, its better.
>>>>> Thanks. Excuse me about my wrong English writing, ok?
>>>>>But I think
>>>>> that I
>>>>> can understand you very well, even so.
>>>>> Achilles
>>>>> Umuarama, July 4, 2008
>>>>>
>>>>> (3) From Mike
>>>>> Hi Joao & Eugene--
>>>>> I do not know of this article in English, although
>>>>>probably we can
>>>>> get it
>>>>> translated if it is not. Meantime, I can recommend two
>>>>>sources that
>>>>> should
>>>>> help:
>>>>> Vygotsky, L. (1993). The collected works of
>>>>>L.S.Vygotsky. Vol.2: The
>>>>> fundamentals of defectology (abnormal psychology and
>>>>>learning
>>>>> disabilities)
>>>>> (R.W.Rieber & A.S. Carton, Eds.). NY: Plenum Press.
>>>>> and
>>>>> Katarina Rodina's article which can be found at lchc as
>>>>>follows:
>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/VygotskyDisabilityEJSNE2007.pdf
>>>>> AR Luria's work should be relevant in several places.
>>>>> Perhaps our Russian bibliophiles can come up with an
>>>>>origanal for
>>>>> translation?
>>>>> mike
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 3:58 AM,
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) From Joao
>>>>> Dear friends... somebody has this text in english:
>>>>> 'Problema razvitia i raspada vyschikh psikhitcheskikh
>>>>>funktsii'
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Joao Martins
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) Achilles para João
>>>>>
>>>>> Eu também teria outro favor para te pedir. É de
>>>>>perguntarna tua
>>>>> lista XMCA
>>>>> (é isso?), sobre haver ou não o seguinte textoem inglês.
>>>>>Em russo
>>>>> eu já
>>>>> tenho e quero traduzir (vai ser maisrápido que o do
>>>>>Pick), mas se
>>>>> já
>>>>> existir em outro lugar, nãohá necessidade. É o
>>>>>seguinte:'Problema
>>>>> razvitia
>>>>> i raspada vyschikh psikhitcheskikh funktsii''Problema do
>>>>> desenvolvimento e
>>>>> desintegração das funções psíquicassuperiores.'Será que
>>>>>já se
>>>>> encontra esse
>>>>> texto em inglês ou espanhol?
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. M. Cathrene Connery
>> Assistant Professor of Education
>> 607.274.7382
>> Ithaca College
>>
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Received on Wed Jul 9 09:52 PDT 2008