But its amazing, Shirely, that many writers do not know how to use writing
as an effective tool of thought an ANY domain!
mike
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:08 PM, Shirley Franklin <s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com>
wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> I agree with Vygotsky!
>
> I am fascinated that he wrote this because I am/was writing a rather
> abortive PhD on precisely this theme.
>
> I was/am interested in applying a Vygotskian approach to learning (of
> scientific concepts) to learning the academic literacy "frames" that are
> required within and across the different disciplines and within the range
> of writing required - reports, essays, etc. ie applying Vygotsky to e
> Shirley-style Genre Pedagogy, drawing on Vygotsky and Halliday et al, both
> in different ways.
>
> But I also agree with those like Scribner and Cole and Street when they
> say that writing is shaped by and reflects culture . However I agree with
> Vy when he says that the process of writing itself develops thought. ie as I
> write this, it scaffolds my thinking about the issue. You asking me the
> question, and me having to reply in the form of a Shirley-email (mode)
> within the XMCA context (field and mode) makes me further develop my ideas
> on the topic.
>
> I admit that when I noticed that I was replying to the xmca list I was
> somewhat more nervous, and will re-edit this more than I would have done
> (tenor) because it is going to the whole list. Does that process mean I
> refine my thoughts even more???
>
> I hope this makes sense to you!
>
> Shirley
>
> On 8 Jul 2008, at 20:51, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Shirley:
>>
>> The best reference for this is A.R. Luria's 1976 publication, "Cognitive
>> development: its cultural and social foundations.' IN this book Luria
>> describes the literaqcy studies conducted by Luria and Vygotsky.
>> Unfortunately this was during a bout of bad health for Vygotsky and I
>> believe LSV was not on site for the entirity of the study. As a result of
>> the data Vygotsky theorized that literacy was the key to humans developing
>> higher psychological functions. This has since been discounted by the
>> cross-cultural studies conducted by Cole, Glick, Scrobner and others.
>>
>> what do you think?
>> eric
>>
>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> cc:
>> bcc:
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotskyan approach to mental health -
>> socio-genetic roots of mental diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic
>> mediation.
>> Shirley Franklin <s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com>
>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> 07/08/2008 10:17 AM CET
>> Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <font
>> size=-1></font>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric,
>>
>> I would be interested to hear more about what you consider to be
>> Vygotsky's misunderstandings of literacy and its effect on higher
>> mental functions.
>> As far as I am aware he didn't write much more than a few pages on
>> this. What he wrote was rather interesting.
>>
>> What do you think is the problem?
>>
>> Shirley
>>
>> On 7 Jul 2008, at 14:47, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Peter;
>>>
>>> I believe as a consumer of mental health services you fall under
>>> the axiom
>>> "highly qualified" to discuss the issue. I believe Vygotsky's
>>> error in his
>>> theories on defectology are similar to his misunderstanding of
>>> literacy and
>>> its effect on higher mental functions. My humble opinion places
>>> this error
>>> in Vygotsky's marriage to marxism and the march towards the 'better
>>> man',
>>> but that is certainly a subject for another time. Whether there be an
>>> error in theorizing or not Vygotsky's contribution to the study of
>>> special
>>> education is HUGE. If one thinks of the augmentation utilized
>>> these days
>>> by students who have disabilities it is specifically what Vygotsky
>>> viewed
>>> as a broadening of the social mileau and semiotic offerings. I
>>> have many
>>> more thoughts on the subject but time is short and usually people have
>>> other things, such as the new XMCA article, to discuss.
>>>
>>> eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Peter
>>> Smagorinsky" To: "'eXtended
>>> Mind, Culture, Activity'" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>> <smago@uga.edu> cc:
>>> Sent by: Subject: RE: [xmca]
>>> Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic
>>> xmca-bounces@web roots of mental
>>> diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.
>>> er.ucsd.edu
>>>
>>>
>>> 07/06/2008 07:24
>>> AM
>>> Please respond
>>> to "eXtended
>>> Mind, Culture,
>>> Activity"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have some very tentative thoughts on Vygotsky's approach to mental
>>> health, extrapolated from what I've read in the Cambridge Companion to
>>> Vygotsky, particularly the chapter by Kozulin and Gindis. I should
>>> qualify
>>> my comments by saying that I have no scholarly credentials for
>>> making this
>>> interpretation; mental health is not my field of study. At the same
>>> time,
>>> I've personally dealt with mental health issues; Asperger's, high
>>> anxiety,
>>> tourette's, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and other neuroatypical
>>> makeups
>>> have run in my family for at least 3 generations, including through
>>> me. So
>>> I do have a vested interest in this discussion, if little in the
>>> way of
>>> formal knowledge.
>>>
>>> The field of defectology had origins in a mechanistic mindset that
>>> viewed
>>> non-normative children as having flaws that could be repaired in
>>> the manner
>>> of a broken-down car engine. Rather than taking the mechanistic
>>> approach
>>> that children with special needs were defective and could be fixed,
>>> Vygotsky viewed the question of their condition "as a
>>> sociocultural rather
>>> than an organic or individual developmental phenomenon" (p. CCV,
>>> 334).
>>> Kozulin and Gindis find that
>>> "The essence of Vygotsky's approach to remedial education is in
>>> addressing
>>> the secondary disability, that is, by countering the negative social
>>> consequences of the primary disability. Vygotsky believed that
>>> physical and
>>> mental impairment could be overcome by creating alternative but
>>> essentially
>>> equivalent roads for cultural development. By acquiring the
>>> psychological
>>> tools, disabled children transform their natural abilities into higher
>>> mental functions as do their nondisabled peers." (CCV, p. 345)
>>>
>>> To Vygotsky, rather than "fixing" the "defect" in the child,
>>> an educator
>>> should strive to minimize or eliminate any environmental factors
>>> that could
>>> amplify the effects of the original point of concern. I imagine
>>> that this
>>> effort might focus on diminishing whatever stigmas follow from being
>>> different; that is, it might attempt to educate people in the
>>> setting about
>>> how to view those with non-normative physical or mental makeups and
>>> treat
>>> them respectfully and in light of their potential. A second
>>> approach would
>>> be to broaden the sign-and-tool systems available for mediation.
>>> Again,
>>> this tack would require changes in the environment so that new
>>> tools become
>>> sanctioned, and new approaches to assessment become available to
>>> allow for
>>> alternative paths to performance.
>>>
>>> I would guess that he would regard "mental illness" the same way he
>>> would
>>> view other forms of "disability": not so much as defective parts
>>> that need
>>> repair, but as non-normative ways of being that call for new activity
>>> systems.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (12) From Achilles
>>>
>>> Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic roots of mental
>>> diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.
>>>
>>> "He (Vygotsky) did not believe in meaningless defect or
>>> retrogression:
>>> since the construction of the human mind follows a certain pattern,
>>> its
>>> destruction also cannot be arbitrary and therefore reveals specific
>>> rupture
>>> lines characteristic of the formation of the human psyche. That is why
>>> observations of the acquisition of language in the deaf-mute, concept
>>> formation in schizophrenics, and the rehabilitation of aphasics
>>> were for
>>> Vygotsky no less a part of developmental psychology than the
>>> sensory-motor
>>> behavior of the two-year old." (Alex Kozuin, Vygotsky's
>>> psychology ? a
>>> biography of ideas, 1990 ? p. 195)
>>>
>>>
>>> I want to study Vygotsky´s theoretical contributions to Mental
>>> Health: (1)
>>> mental diseases theoretical and methodological comprehension; and (2)
>>> therapeutics dialogical practices, in a cultural-historical
>>> approach. And I
>>> asked here on the existence of English translation from
>>> "Проблема развития
>>> и распада высших психических
>>> функций", because I wish to translate it to
>>> Portuguese but not if it exists in English. Mike Cole suggests reading
>>> Luria, and Akhutina and Rodina. Very important suggestions, I will
>>> study
>>> Akhutina and Rodina, and search another references by Luria than
>>> the ones I
>>> have here (more in "classical science" style, than in the
>>> "romantic
>>> science" books, maybe the ones what I need, I don't know). But,
>>> what more
>>> can you suggest to me about the "vygotskyan approach to mental
>>> health -
>>> socio-genetic roots of mental diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic
>>> mediation"?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you very much.
>>>
>>> Achilles,
>>> Umuarama, July 5, 2008.
>>>
>>>
>>> (11) From Mike
>>> Luria-- Also check out Akhutina and Rodina article at LCHC. And ask
>>> on XMCA
>>> to see what comes up/mike
>>> (10) From Achilles
>>> I remember that there was a vygotskyan metaphorthat 'a building
>>> does not
>>> tumbling down, by anotherlaws that ones it was constructed' (not
>>> exactly
>>> this words,I quote by core)- maybe quoted by Kozulin, I don't
>>> exactlyremember high now. Seems to me a important methodological
>>> principle,
>>> but I haven't seen much empirical work raised in it, in mental health
>>> historical-cultural research, if you could help me with this to, I
>>> will be
>>> very greatfull too.Thank you again, very much.Achilles,Umuarama, 04
>>> July,
>>> 2008.
>>> (9) From Mike
>>> Yes, i firmly believe that.very important.mike
>>> (8) From Achilles
>>> Thanks...I had writed about my interest in othermail before read
>>> this.Do
>>> you think that 'raspada (desintegration) problem'can help us
>>> understand
>>> some questions to mentalhealth in historical-cultural
>>> approach?Achilles,Umuarama, July 4, 2008
>>>
>>> (7) From Bella
>>> Why italian? I sent you the Russian text- here it is once
>>> more.Mike, we
>>> just recently discussed problems of translation. If you want it tobe
>>> published in English, it would be reasonable to use the original
>>> Russiantext.Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>>> (6) From Mike
>>> Whoa!! here is the article for Poalo in Italian!! I have sent to
>>> Pentti
>>> fortranslation in JREEP/mikePS-- Thanks BorisЛегче найти
>>> на итальянском:Il
>>> problema dello sviluppo e della disintegrazione delle funzioni
>>> psichichesuperiori // La psicologia sovietica 1917-1936. Roma: Edit.
>>> Riuniti, 1976.P. 330-347.С уважением,
>>> (5) From Mike
>>> No need to apologize for your English at all, Achilles!You provide
>>> a great
>>> reference in Kozulin's book that should be accessible to readers of
>>> XMCA,
>>> and in the article from Vygotsky reader. Abrigado!:-)mike
>>>
>>> (4) From Achilles
>>> Joao, Eugene and Mike,
>>> The original text, in Russian we have in Russian Wikipedia, but the
>>> link
>>> seems to be broken. But I have downloded it before. (atached here)
>>>
>>> I wonder that the 'raspada' (disintegration/decay) problem is
>>> related not
>>> only to the defectology matters, but to the pathopsychology's too
>>> (like
>>> schizophrenia and Pick's disease
>>> - Kozulin presents this question in 'Vygotsky - a biography of
>>> ideas' (cap.
>>> 6 ? Mind in Trouble - section Psychopathology and Regression); And
>>> there is
>>> a Vygotsky´s article in the Vygotsky Reader about 'Though in
>>> Schizophrenia'
>>> (I translate to Portuguese); the text about Pick's disease by
>>> Vygotsky,
>>> Samukhin and Bierenbaum 'K voprosu o dementsii pri bolezni Pika -
>>> klinitcheskoe i eksperimen- tal'no issledovanie' we find only in
>>> Russian
>>> too, Joao obtains it here in the list and pass to me), but I don't
>>> know
>>> yet. I can try translate the Russian 'Problema razvitia i raspada
>>> vyschikh
>>> psikhitcheskikh funktsii', aided by dictionaries and another on-line
>>> translation tools, trying to learn Russian psychological
>>> vocabulary, but if
>>> Eugene did it, its better.
>>> Thanks. Excuse me about my wrong English writing, ok? But I think
>>> that I
>>> can understand you very well, even so.
>>> Achilles
>>> Umuarama, July 4, 2008
>>>
>>> (3) From Mike
>>> Hi Joao & Eugene--
>>> I do not know of this article in English, although probably we can
>>> get it
>>> translated if it is not. Meantime, I can recommend two sources that
>>> should
>>> help:
>>> Vygotsky, L. (1993). The collected works of L.S.Vygotsky. Vol.2: The
>>> fundamentals of defectology (abnormal psychology and learning
>>> disabilities)
>>> (R.W.Rieber & A.S. Carton, Eds.). NY: Plenum Press.
>>> and
>>> Katarina Rodina's article which can be found at lchc as follows:
>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/VygotskyDisabilityEJSNE2007.pdf
>>> AR Luria's work should be relevant in several places.
>>> Perhaps our Russian bibliophiles can come up with an origanal for
>>> translation?
>>> mike
>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 3:58 AM,
>>>
>>> (2) From Joao
>>> Dear friends... somebody has this text in english:
>>> 'Problema razvitia i raspada vyschikh psikhitcheskikh funktsii'
>>> Thanks
>>> Joao Martins
>>>
>>> (1) Achilles para João
>>>
>>> Eu também teria outro favor para te pedir. É de perguntarna tua
>>> lista XMCA
>>> (é isso?), sobre haver ou não o seguinte textoem inglês. Em russo
>>> eu já
>>> tenho e quero traduzir (vai ser maisrápido que o do Pick), mas se já
>>> existir em outro lugar, nãohá necessidade. É o seguinte:'Problema
>>> razvitia
>>> i raspada vyschikh psikhitcheskikh funktsii''Problema do
>>> desenvolvimento e
>>> desintegração das funções psíquicassuperiores.'Será que já se
>>> encontra esse
>>> texto em inglês ou espanhol?
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>>
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Received on Tue Jul 8 13:52 PDT 2008
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