Andy
I tried it on a Mac and PC - the download version that is - the
problem is simply that the sound files are in an external folder on
your desktop called
htm/ethicalpolitics/seminars/hegel-cultural-psychologist.
Ed
>Thanks for everyone's perseverance here. Wtih cooperation the collective
>capacity for communication is growing, bit by byte so to speak.
>mike
>
>On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 12:44 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
>> I still can't understand why PowerPoint doesn't work, but I have now, with
>> assistance from Bruce Jones, uploaded a simple HTML version of the talk on
>> Hegel and Cultural Psychology:
>>
>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/ablunden/hegel-cultural-psychologist/index.htm
>>
>> The disadvantage of the HTML version is just that you have a wait a minute
>> between each section of the talk while the audio is queued.
>>
>> Apologies for all the fuss to get this right. nI will find the time to
>> transcribe it to text.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>
>>> Doesn't work. File, Open brings up a selection window, not a box. This is
>>> PowerPoint for the Mac, of course-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/13/08 9:23 PM, "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> OK, if you can't open PPT with your non-MicroSoft browser,
>>>> you *can* enter the URL into the File ... Open ... box of
>>>> your MicroSoft PowerPoint.
>>>>
>>>> So copy "
>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/hegel-cultural-psychologist/hegel-chat.ppt"
>>>> and paste it into the File Open box.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>
>>>>> I get the dingle, then silence on the 2nd slide, downloaded from either
>>>>> site. If I try to run it in KeyNote instead of PowerPoint I get a
>>>>> message
>>>>> saying the mp3 files are missing. But it's a large file (1.6M) so I
>>>>> suspect
>>>>> they're in there somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/13/08 7:47 PM, "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh! and before that, when you are asked to Open or Save, of
>>>>>> course you *open* it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You press the round button, then it will go to the first slide with a
>>>>>>> "dingle" sound and a couple of seconds later I start talking.
>>>>>>> Otherwise
>>>>>>> try
> >>>>>>
>http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/hegel-cultural-psychologist/hegel-c
>>>>>>> ha
> >>>>>> t.ppt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't imagine how it would not work on a Mac or otherwise.
> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It downloads without the soundtrack, at least to my Mac, Andy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/13/08 6:43 PM, "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He, he. I guess it's almost self-evident that I think that
>>>>>>>>> Hegel is absolute central to both Vygotsky's program and
>>>>>>>>> even more important for its furher development. I just think
>>>>>>>>> that explanation of the human species in terms of biological
>>>>>>>>> evolution is peripheral if interesting to both projects.
>>>>>>>>> Basically work like Merlinm Donald's (which I support
>>>>>>>>> enthusiastically) are specualting on the basis of what we
>>>>>>>>> know fairly well about what we know almost nothing about. I
>>>>>>>>> am sure that if Hegel had had the benefit of reading "Origin
>>>>>>>>> of Species" he would have radically revised his theory of
>>>>>>>>> nature.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A summary of my view of Hegel's contribution is at
>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/hegel-cultural-psychologist/hegel-chat.ppt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>>>>>> Given the points you make about Hegel, which strike me as cogent
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> important, what is your view of the contribution Hegel made to
>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's
>>>>>>>>>> program for a general psychology, and the contribution our
>>>>>>>>>> understanding of
>>>>>>>>>> Hegel today could make for our efforts to continue such a program?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Martin
> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/08 7:18 PM, "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Both the points you make are valid enough Martin, I am just
>>>>>>>>>>> being a bit pedantically precise, but I think it's worth it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For example, as I came to realise how firmly opposed, not
>>>>>>>>>>> just unaware of biological evolution Hegel was, it really
>>>>>>>>>>> focussed my attention on how he gets development out of
>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness and human activity. Interestingly, despite the
>>>>>>>>>>> oportunity for a radically "non-essentialist" philosophy
>>>>>>>>>>> here, Hegel made gender and race differences something given
>>>>>>>>>>> by Nature and introduced horrific sexism and racism into his
>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy. But feminists and postcolonialists have not been
>>>>>>>>>>> put off using Hegel for their own purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise, his declaration in the Philosophy of Right that he
>>>>>>>>>>> was not here concerned with the history of Right, only what
>>>>>>>>>>> right is, forces one to think very deeply about the place of
>>>>>>>>>>> historicism in science. So even though we have to amend
>>>>>>>>>>> Hegel in places - I certainly do - it is well worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>> keeping in mind what is Hegel and what is interpretation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Re appearance and reality: what is "reality", what kind of
>>>>>>>>>>> thought-form is it? Presumably you mean it as something
>>>>>>>>>>> outside thought?? Or is it potential thought? Is it of a
>>>>>>>>>>> different substance than appearance? ... Reality is I think
>>>>>>>>>>> synonymous with Actuality for Hegel, a category which is
>>>>>>>>>>> part of the Doctrine of Essence. I really don't think you
>>>>>>>>>>> can sustain the concept of Reality in the sense of the
>>>>>>>>>>> ultimate object of knowledge.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I don't want to anachronistically read Darwin back into
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hegel. Right
>>>>>>>>>>>> now my Hegel scholarship is restricted to Marcuse's book since
>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>> my other
>>>>>>>>>>>> books are out of reach, and Marcuse emphasizes the dynamic
>>>>>>>>>>>> character of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hegel's conception of - well, of everything. If one considers
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hegel's
>>>>>>>>>>>> position that the World makes progress towards knowledge and
>>>>>>>>>>>> truth, through
>>>>>>>>>>>> the means of human subjectivity, one could read this as a
>>>>>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>>>>>> version
>>>>>>>>>>>> of evolutionism - and as you know Lenin saw Darwin as a truly
> >>>>>>>>>>> dialectical
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On moving from appearance to reality- I'm drawing here in part
>>>>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>> of a colleague at Duquesne, Tom Rockmore, who's an excellent
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hegel
>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In a recent book Rockmore emphasizes that for Hegel the
>>>>>>>>>>>> distinction between
>>>>>>>>>>>> appearance and reality occurs within our experience. For Kant, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast,
>>>>>>>>>>>> all we can ever experience is appearance. It is for Kant that
>>>>>>>>>>>> there is "a
>>>>>>>>>>>> reality hidden behind appearances." For Hegel, human knowledge is
>>>>>>>>>>>> fallible
>>>>>>>>>>>> but gradually progresses to more and more adequate knowledge of
>>>>>>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>>>> what I think needs to be added is that (as I understand it) Hegel
>>>>>>>>>>>> saw this
>>>>>>>>>>>> progress not as simply a result of humans knowing the world
>>>>>>>>>>>> better, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>>> as a result of humans transforming the world to make it suit our
>>>>>>>>>>>> needs,
>>>>>>>>>>>> interests, and ideals. But that takes us into Mike's latest
>>>>>>>>>>>> message...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/08 8:54 PM, "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Martin,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with your main conclusion about LSV, that it was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *materialist* psychology that he aspired to, but could I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> offer some pretty small change "corrections" to your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> observations?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hegel's ideas about the origins of human life are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprisingly inconsistent with a modern reading of him. He
>>>>>>>>>>>>> emphatically rejected the idea that humans originated from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals or that any animal originated out of another animal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was familiar with Lamarck and rejected this theory out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. He believed that Spirit was created, as in the Book of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Genesis, all at once. This doesn't stop us "interpreting"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> him in a materialist spirit, in the light of Darwinism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, Hegel did believe that consciousness originated in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> labour, child-rearing and speech. But not out of "matter",
>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever that would mean. The idea of matter having the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> potential for thinking is not a Hegelian idea. Matter is an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> abstraction of thought, for Hegel.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I think that to talk of how "knowledge can ... move
>>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond appearance to reality" is dubious. This retains the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea of a reality hidden behind appearances. If there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> two kinds of knowledge then I think "appearance" and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "reality" are not the right names for them. If "appearance"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and "reality" are meant to be categorically different
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things, then I think Lenin had it right in denying this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://marx.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/mec/two1.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more I think about this (and I have been thinking on it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interim), the more comfortable I am that Vygotsky indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insisted on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lopping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off the idealist side of psychology's dualism. The notion that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the stuff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the universe is solely material, and that there is no separate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distinct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'mental stuff' or 'spiritual stuff' has a long and distiguished
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> history,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BBC program makes clear. A materialist psychology would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in line with Marx's materialism. And even Hegel, despite being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labelled
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idealist and despite Marx's claim to have turned him on his
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> head,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recognized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that humans evolved from simpler stuff which must have had its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> origins in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter. The capacity for thinking, Hegel reasoned, is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> potential which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inherent in matter, and develops over time, rather than having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its source
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some other, etherial, transcendental or platonic realm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's materialist psychology avoids equating the mental
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subjective, or consciousness with appearance as representation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> follows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the study of consciousness is not the study of appearances
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entirely distinct from reality (Kant's vision). It is not the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> study of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way a person constructs mental representations of a world that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> outside them. For Vygotsky, like Hegel, Marx & Feuerbach, our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progress, and move beyond appearance to reality. If we accept
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to have a different conception of the way humans live in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted to study the "material, sensory acts" in which a person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world. He wanted to study the mind, but not as a mental
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> subject, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subjectivity, related to external objects. This is the way mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appears
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself in introspection, but in action mind is not divided in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mind, and consciousness, are real and objective processes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the interactions between bodies and material objects. And
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> studied empirically.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/08 1:29 PM, "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is your current take on this issue, Martin? Perhaps a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> followup in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MCA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is warranted?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Martin Packer <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> packer@duq.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the article published in MCA that was discussed here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recently I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pointed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out that in Crisis Vygotsky declared the need to end the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dualism in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> psychology by eliminating the idealist pole and developing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoroughly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materialist psychology. Some of the history of materialism,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both in its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reductionist and non-reductionist versions (V's being the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> latter) can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heard at the link below, in the BBC Radio program In Our Time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learn that they ran out of time to discuss Hegel and Marx,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shame. (This is the same program which a year or so ago ran a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poll in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marx was voted the most important philosopher of all time,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much to host
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Melvyn Bragg's surprise and dismay.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/inourtime.shtml
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>><http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>+61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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Received on Sat May 17 10:31 PDT 2008
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