Glad to provide some mirth with my poorly informed knowledge of the method
of dual stimulation.
It always depresses me, so any more optimistic interpretation is welcome.
Thanks Andy.
mike -- with no keys to no kingdoms!
Ps-- He He?? Why know sssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhe sheeeeeeeeeeeeee?
:-)
On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> He, he, so Mike critiques this idea of Freedom and Necessity by pointing
> to
> the conflicts of interest *within* a society which Hegel, and, when
> speaking of the hypothetical socialist future, Engels, take to have
> reconciled.
>
> This is one of Hegel's most famous examples of this issue:
> The building of a house is, in the first instance, a subjective aim and
> design. On the other hand we have, as means, the several substances
> required for the work, - Iron, Wood, Stones. The elements are made use of
> in working up this material: fire to melt the iron, wind to blow the fire,
> water to set wheels in motion, in order to cut the wood, &c. The result
> is,
> that the wind, which has helped to build the house, is shut out by the
> house; so also are the violence of rains and floods, and the destructive
> powers of fire, so far as the house is made fire-proof. The stones and
> beams obey the law of gravity, - press downwards, - and so high walls are
> carried up. Thus the elements are made use of in accordance with their
> nature, and yet to co-operate for a product, by which their operation is
> limited. Thus the passions of men are gratified; they develop themselves
> and their aims in accordance with their natural tendencies, and build up
> the edifice of human society; thus fortifying a position for Right and
> Order _against themselves_.
> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hi/history3.htm
>
> But in fact Hegel never thought that "man" would gain control of his own
> history:
> It is not the general idea that is implicated in opposition and combat,
> and
> that is exposed to danger. It remains in the background, untouched and
> uninjured. This may be called the _cunning of reason_, - that it sets the
> passions to work for itself, while that which develops its existence
> through such impulsion pays the penalty and suffers loss. Yet no lingering
> lies or make-believe strokes in the air can achieve anything against it.
> They can perhaps reach the shoelaces of this colossus, and smear on a bit
> of boot wax or mud, but they cannot untie the laces.
> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hi/history3.htm#036
> The most revolting application of the idea, for me, was Stalin's:
> If the world is knowable and our knowledge of the laws of development of
> nature is authentic knowledge, having the validity of objective truth, it
> follows that social life, the development of society, is also knowable,
> and
> that the data of science regarding the laws of development of society are
> authentic data having the validity of objective truths.
> Hence, the science of the history of society, despite all the complexity
> of
> the phenomena of social life, can become as precise a science as, let us
> say, biology, and capable of making use of the laws of development of
> society for practical purposes.
> Hence, the party of the proletariat should not guide itself in its
> practical activity by casual motives, but by the laws of development of
> society, and by practical deductions from these laws.
> Hence, socialism is converted from a dream of a better future for humanity
> into a science.
> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm
> The point is I think the constitution of the *subject*. The revolting
> formulations of this idea take for granted that the leader (Stalin,
> Saddam)
> expresses the will of the individual citizen; social conflicts and
> differences have been erased so that it is possible to talk about "man" as
> if there were such a unitary subject charting its own history. Never was,
> never will be.
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> At 02:56 PM 26/02/2008 -0800, you wrote:
> >OK, so here is to me the most compelling example of "controlling yourself
> >from the outside" but it is not a happy
> >story....... I saw Persepolis last week and was reminded of it.
> >
> >During the Iran-Iraq war when Saddam was our buddy, Iranian teens were
> >convinced to lead donkeys across mine fields. How did their far seeing
> >elders' arrange for them to do this?
> >By giving them a plastic key to heaven with all of its "out of this life"
> >rewards. The kids were able to use this "neutral Stimulus" of the method
> of
> >dual stimulation to keep on walking forward when their donkey's
> terrified,
> >ran away.
> >These young, compared to the donkey's were exercising
> >extreme self control from the outside, which invaded their bodies via the
> >symbolic artifact.
> >
> >Asses to asses and dust to dust,
> >It higher psychic functions
> >We all should trust?
> >
> >mike
> >
> >On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > The manuscript is sent, and my life is lighter by about 500 pages. So
> back
> > > now to freedom and necessity. In the article I propose that central to
> the
> > > conception of history that V seems to have drawn from Marx (and/or
> Engels,
> > > Hegel...) is the notion that humans can reach a point where we come to
> > > understand the laws, the objective tendencies, that move history, and
> by
> > > doing so we can break these laws! What was necessity becomes freedom,
> > > indeed
> > > necessity provides the basis for freedom. It is by discovering the
> > > objective
> > > laws of our own existence that we are able, through using them, to
> > > transcend
> > > them.
> > >
> > > What I then tried to show is that V had a very similar way of thinking
> > > about
> > > children's development. (In fact he drew an explicit parallel.) I
> think
> > > this
> > > has been missed because the underlying conception of history is not
> well
> > > known in the west. Here too there is a break, a leap, from necessity
> to
> > > freedom. This is especially emphasized for adolescence, but it is
> evident
> > > elsewhere in development too. The qualitative leap to the higher
> > > psychological functions is a result of self-mastery: of control of
> ones
> > > own
> > > natural psychological functions. This is the person acting on
> themselves
> > > (which necessarily follows upon action on others, and vice versa). In
> > > order
> > > to form scientific concepts, the developing human *needs* to control
> their
> > > own behavior. I quote Norris Minick's translation of Thinking & Speech
> (p.
> > > 63).
> > >
> > > " The higher form of activity is present wherever there is mastery of
> > > processes of onešs own behavior and, first of all, its reactive
> functions.
> > > In subjecting to his will the process of his own reactions, man enters
> in
> > > this way into a substantially new relation with the environment, comes
> to
> > > a
> > > new functional exploitation of elements in the environment as
> > > stimuli-signs
> > > which he uses, depending on external means, and directs and controls
> his
> > > own
> > > behavior, controls himself from outside, compelling stimuli-signs to
> > > affect
> > > him, and elicits reactions that he desires."
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2/23/08 3:15 AM, "Paul Dillon" <phd_crit_think@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This problem of the freedom of the self and history's inexorable
> > > process was
> > > > for noone else a greater preoccupation than for Sartre, whose
> Critique
> > > of
> > > > Dialectical Reason" will certainly come to be appreciated "as time
> goes
> > > by".
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
> mobile 0409 358 651
>
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Received on Tue Feb 26 20:07 PST 2008
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