RE: [xmca] neoformation / zpd

I think the issue of more or less developed becomes a non-issue if,
as Newman and Holzman support, we shift the focus to the continuous
creation of the environment for development to occur and if the unit
that is developing is the group, rather than the individual. So for
example, when I was a preschool teacher years ago I always had
children in my class who were more or less skilled at mathematics and
I was an adult who definitely knew a lot more math than any of them,
but on the other hand I had never been "good at math." By focusing
on the creation of the environment where we could play with math
where everyone could contribute what they had to contribute the
question of better or worse, more or less developed became a
non-issue. I think Lois' discussion of performance is key here---in
this environment what we were able to do is perform as
mathematicians, which is not the same as being judged on your math skills.

Carrie

Vygotsky's description of the infant learning to speak (and Newman
and Holzman's completion of that description) has always been
extremely helpful to me here. It is not the At 11:20 AM 2/10/2008, you wrote:
>But here is my question as I struggle with this. If we say
>developed then are we forced to say developed towards what. An
>argument that comes up on this list from time to time is
>teleology. Can we assume there is one? Doesn't the idea that there
>is development suggest there is such a thing as more developed and
>less developed? How do we deal with that without making value judgments.
>
>I think I agree with the idea that there is a teleology, or at least
>a more advanced and less advanced state of being, for humans in
>general. I would posit that democracy is more advanced than
>authoritarianism as a governing strategy, but that is I think
>because historically you could make an empirical argument democratic
>societies tend to be more adaptive to changing ecologies and needs
>than authoritarian societies. But can you bring this idea of more
>advanced or less advanced back down to the individual, and is it
>even worth it considering the dangers that it entails and the
>differentiation of individual experiences. Are we setting ourselves
>up to use a deficit model and will we have difficulty understanding
>what is happening outside of our own habitus. I think it is
>possible if we return to the idea of a whole child. A child who is
>not hungry is better off than a child who is hungry. A child who
>has sheter is better off than a child who does not have shelter. A
>child who has time and space to play is better off than a child who
>does not have time and space to play. Perhaps if we want to take it
>down a bit more in to the weeds, a child whose intellectual
>curiousity is primed is better off than a child whose intellectual
>curiousity is not primed. But as soon as we start talking about
>more or less developed in terms of skill sets whose agenda are we promoting?
>
>Michael
>
>________________________________
>
>From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Lisa Kuh
>Sent: Sun 2/10/2008 10:01 AM
>To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>Subject: Re: [xmca] neoformation / zpd
>
>
>
>Hmm....I want to make sure that we are indeed making a distinction between
>learning and development and not polarizing them. My thought is that in the
>ZPD paradigm, if "learning leads development", then there is a complex
>relationship between the learning and development....perhaps as others have
>offered where learning seems to indicate acquisition and development a
>change in structure of some sort. However, my sense is that within the ZPD,
>both learning and development share the stage, not just hierarchically, but
>in relationship to each other within the context of the situation.
>Still pondering this distinction....
>
>Lisa P. Kuh, M.Ed.
>Head Teacher, Eliot-Pearson Children's School
>Tufts University
>PhD Candidate, Teacher Education
>University of Washington
>146 Allston Street
>Medford, MA 02155
>206-406-0134 781-391-1533
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Elinami Swai" <swaiev@gmail.com>
>To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:55 AM
>Subject: Re: [xmca] neoformation / zpd
>
>
> >I also like the way people are making distinction btn learning and
> > development.But must one loose some skills as he/she develops? Can we
> > say, those skills are just being peripherised, and can still be used
> > when needed? (one does not forget a certain skill or how he/she used
> > to think, just by knowing it in a different way). Development can then
> > be adding new skills and learning, transforming those skills. ZPD can
> > be seen more clearly on development part -- the difference between
> > what one knew and what is now known. But in learning, how a skill was
> > transformed--the difference might not be very clear.
> >
> > Elinami.
> > On 2/9/08, Worthen, Helena Harlow <hworthen@ad.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >> I like Andy's way of making a distinction between "learning" and
> >> "development."
> >>
> >> I'd venture that "development" is more likely to occur in a zpd-rich
> >> context.
> >>
> >> Michael Glassman mentions the "individualist box." What if we try using
> >> this distinction -- development is "a step foward that entails
> >> restructuring/losing some abilities while gaining others, while
> >> "learning" is adding skills -- doesn't that get us out of the box?
> >>
> >> Helena
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf
> >> Of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net]
> >> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 7:10 PM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] neoformation / zpd
> >>
> >> "Listening" to what everyone is saying about zpd, it seems that people
> >> see
> >> zpd as relevant to learning in general, and not tied to development. Is
> >> this true?
> >>
> >> If I ask myself what it is that make a step forward *development* rather
> >> than *learning*, then I'd say it's a step forward that entails *losing*
> >> some abilities while acquiring new ones, whereas learning means just
> >> adding
> >> new skills., not losing them Whenever a development first takes place,
> >> that
> >> is to say we have a *re*-structuring taking place, then necessarily every
> >> other aspect of a person's activity and their relations to others around
> >> them has to change / restructure as well. That's the nature of structure,
> >> after all. So what was learnt has to grow over into other areas of
> >> activity. But isn't this process an important aspect of the concept of
> >> zpd?
> >> Or is that just incidental? Given that development is definitively and in
> >> a
> >> much more profound way, something that is driven by the demands and
> >> expectations of others and the person's relation to others, it would seem
> >> that zpd is a concept which ought to have special significance for
> >> development, not just learning.
> >>
> >> How do people see the concept of zpd in relation to *development*
> >> specifically?
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> At 02:55 PM 8/02/2008 -0800, you wrote:
> >> >Yes, XMCA is a zoped, though it can also be a confessional and a
> >> >tribunal
> >> >too. I think the main reason why XMCA is a zoped and the confessional
> >> >and
> >> >tribunal are not is that the latter have an EVALUATIVE rather than a
> >> >DEVELOPMENTAL function. So the proper function of a confessional and a
> >> >tribunal (and SOME forms of teaching) is ASSESSMENT rather than
> >> >LEARNING.
> >> >That's what I meant about having our backs to the future.
> >> >
> >> > Many of the on-line presentations (Mike's, Pentti Hakarainnen's, and
> >> > of
> >> > course the Seoul presentations) have to do with a text called "Problem
> >> > of
> >> > Age" in Volume Five of the Collected Works, eric. In it, LSV really
> >> > does
> >> > describe disappearing neoformations ("autonomous speech" and
> >> > "negativism"
> >> > are mentioned, and that's why Dr. Subbotsky talks about negativism in
> >> > his
> >> > remarks at the on-line seminar). And of course in Chapter Five and Six
> >> > of
> >> > Thinking and Speech he also talks about everyday concepts "blazing a
> >> > trail" for scientific concepts.
> >> >
> >> > That's for the tribunal. Now for the confessional part! My statement
> >> > that the "Goliath" was developmentally inert but the "Feast of
> >> > Belshazzar" is somehow catalytic was simply wrong: I think they were
> >> > BOTH
> >> > catalytic, but only ontogenetically. Neither one was catalytic
> >> > socioculturally; neither one really had a future with other painters.
> >> > (I
> >> > certainly don't want to paint bug-eyed Belshazzars with bunches of
> >> > bananas on the ends of their arms.)
> >> >
> >> > An example of a socioculturally catalytic form of painting would be
> >> > the
> >> > small devotional miniatures which Elsheimer did. They were so small
> >> > people wouldn't pay good prices for them, and Elsheimer died of
> >> > starvation with his whole family. His art prefigured the slightly
> >> > larger
> >> > devotional works that made Poussin's fortune, and even today it
> >> > survives
> >> > in cameo art.
> >> >
> >> > (I even knew a guy in Paris who survived by frequenting auctions
> >> > where
> >> > they would calculate how much money you got per square inch for your
> >> > last
> >> > canvas and then start bidding with that price for your next one. He'd
> >> > show up with a tiny canvas and bid the price up ridiculously high, and
> >> > then come the next week with an ENORMOUS one!)
> >> >
> >> > David Kellogg
> >> > Seoul National University of Education
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >---------------------------------
> >> >Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
> >> >Search.
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >xmca mailing list
> >> >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >> Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
> >> mobile 0409 358 651
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Elinami Swai
> > Womens' and Gender Studies
> > University Hall 4220-A
> > The University of Toledo
> > Toledo, OH, 43606
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
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Received on Sun Feb 10 10:03 PST 2008