RE: [xmca] neoformation

A great post because it makes me think of a thousand questions. Are
zpds always intended? What if I'm having a conversation with a friend
and all of a sudden she mentions something that makes me think, hmmm, I
haven't heard that before, and it leads to a really salient situation.
I was in a research meeting and a student mentioned the different ways
children were discussed in policy in the first part of the 20th century
and the latter part of the 20th century. It sparked a salient learning
moment for me. Leading to a second question - are zpds circumscribed?
Meaning I started with that one learning moment, but then it starts
building on itself. Can I still say my learning is part of the original
zpd? Are zpds unidirectional, or can it be almost like a game of ping
pong, where one person says something that sparks learning in one
person, which leads to her saying something leading to learning in
return.

I guess this all points to Phillips point about whether there needs to a
redefinition of the zpd, or to Mike's point that maybe it needs to be
stretched out further in to Vygotsky's thought and those who came after.
But then does that make it difficult and two far outside of its
usefulness according to the rules of current scientific discourse? To
bring Bourdieu back in if only for a moment, does it take us too far
outside the habitus of many of those studying development and even
education? Is it part of a field that has no implications, and pursuing
these ideas little social (and eventually material) capital?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
On Behalf Of Worthen, Helena Harlow
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:56 AM
To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity
Subject: RE: [xmca] neoformation

Hello --

Sometimes I like to think about the zpd in terms of what is not a zpd
situation -- that is, something that involves very close interaction
between people in extended conversation that is highly purposeful but is
NOT intended to accomplish teaching or learning. For example: deposing a
witness, confessing to a priest, bargaining a contract. If you took a
photo of each of these you might think that there was a zpd there
somewhere, but I don't think there is.

Helena Worthen

________________________________________
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Mike Cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 10:36 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] neoformation

Michael. I think your note reinforces what Peter wrote in an odd way.
the zoped cannot be isolated easily, not measured (perhaps at all, and
certainly not by standardized techniques, and its contextual aspects are
enormous. BUT, if you reduce it to scaffolding, "amount of help needed",
ignore what is written beyond Thought and Language and the
chapter in mind in society -- in short, if you assimilate it, as I first
did, to mediated stimulus response learning theory circa 1962, THEN
it can be assimilated by Americans.

However, if you keep on reading......
mike

On Mon, Feb 4, 2008 at 5:16 AM, Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
wrote:

> You know it also might be the other way around, that people in the
U.S.
> are not really that taken with Vygotsky but with the zpd because it
fits
> relatively well in to modern mainstream discourse in the United
States in
> studying children (it can be isolated, it can be measured, it measures
a
> particular aspect of the child - cognitive development, its contextual
> aspects are limited), and they are happy to associate Vygotsky with
the ZPD.
>
> Michael
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky
> Sent: Mon 2/4/2008 6:06 AM
> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
> Subject: RE: [xmca] neoformation
>
>
>
> I wonder if the idea that "Americans" are heavily focused on the zpd
comes
> from the possibility that Mind in Society presented it early as a
> Vygotskian
> construct in translation, and it was converted to a new metaphor
> ("scaffolding") that people can grasp relatively easily (if not
> particularly
> deeply in many cases). But I think it's mostly something that's
focused on
> by people who haven't read much LSV, which would be most people in the
US
> who talk about LSV. The zpd is also something that an ed psych
textbook
> can
> include that "explains" Vygotsky while covering many perspectives on
human
> development or other ed psych topics.
>
> But I think that people who read a bit beyond a chapter excerpt from
Mind
> in
> Society look at more than the ZPD. In my view, the problem is that in
the
> US, there's a paucity of people who've read beyond the introductory
> readings, and thus the appearance of a national focus on what's most
> readily
> available. Those who've read more tend to put the zpd into the
perspective
> of Vygotsky's larger project, I think.
>
> Peter Smagorinsky
> The University of Georgia
> 125 Aderhold Hall
> Athens, GA 30602
> smago@uga.edu/phone:706-542-4507
> http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
On
> Behalf Of Dot Robbins
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 5:05 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [xmca] neoformation
>
> Thank many of you for your thoughts on neoformations, ZPD, social
> situation
> of development, leading activity....it is interesting to find articles
> that
> try to return to the unity of the genetic, structural, and functional
> analysis of consciousness and development. And, when in Moscow in the
> past,
> I was asked numerous times why there is such a focus on the ZPD in the
> West,
> as opposed to critical/non-critical times of development
neoformations,
> etc.
> The only answer I had (and correct me if this is wrong) is that in the
> USA,
> to my understanding, there are certainly many clinical psychologists
who
> use
> Luria's ideas, but fewer psychologists who use Vygotsky's ideas
(assuming
> that the majority of Vygotskians [certainly not all] in the USA are in
> some
> form of education). So, I continually look for articles that try to
> refocus
> on basic issues through the lens that includes non-linear thinking,
> non-classical or organic psychology, historical method, "systemics,"
> dialectics, etc., a
> return to trying to understand what the "experimental-genetic method"
is,
> and to develop my own Vygotskian heuristic that can be used for
personal
> "transformation," which will also inspire/motivate others. It is a
drive
> for
> constant change that leads to development in all ages, and this is
where
> Vygotsky helps me. It is not so much striving to understand static
> definitions, but how to use a method for real change. How do we
actually
> understand the process of development as "developing" and the
potentiality
> involved? And, all of this leads to thoughts on causality,
determinism, as
> well as internalization, etc.
> I believe the ideas of neoformation, social situation of development,
> leading activity, ZPD, critical periods (that need to be extended
beyond
> 17years of age, in Moscow there have been discussions on the critical
ages
> of 22 and 24) have not been viewed in a unified manner, which must
also
> include word meaning, concept formation, operational-technical and
> emotional-motivational aspects of activity, etc. Returning to
> neoformations,
> I would like to understand that concept more, especially in relation
to
> its
> transitional role, and the fact that neoformations can be brought to
life
> or
> experimentally created. It also returns to the ideas of "engagement"
and
> "separation" where non-linear paths cross and form connections, such
as
> spontaneous/scientific concepts (and to be honest, I feel that our
> interpretations are sometimes limiting and rigid.for example,
scientific
> concepts which are often viewed from the abstract to the concrete, or
> spontaneous concepts from the concrete to
> the abstract, something I find difficult to truly understand in some
> Western texts).
> Nik Veresov has written an article that views neoformations (and the
> social situation of development) that encourages me regarding a newer
> vision
> of integral unity, non-linear thinking, etc. "Leading Activity in
> Development Psychology." Journal of Russian and East European
Psychology,
> 2006, 44/5, pp. 7-25. He returns to a position of Vygotskian ideas
within
> a
> systemic, organic (living, dialectical) approach. He also enters the
world
> of "between" and Vygotsky's interaction of the ideal and real
forms...I
> hope
> we will see more articles on the concept of neoformations. Thanks to
> David,
> Elina, Mike, others for stimulating new thoughts on a subject rarely
> discussed.
> Warm regards,
> Dot
> P.S. Nik also mentions K. Polivanova, and the word Sasha spoke of
earlier
> subjectivization. "In her splendid book she cogently demonstrates that
the
> content of crises is the transformation of an age-related new
formation
> into
> a subjective capability-subjectivization." (p. 22)
>
>
> Dorothy (Dot) Robbins
> Professor of German
> Russian Orphanage Vyschgorod
> www.vygotsky-robbins.com
>
>
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Received on Thu Feb 7 09:53 PST 2008