Re: [xmca] Another Claim That LSV Did Not Originate the ZPD

It would be interesting to read Meumann's interpretation of what Vygotsky called zpd; an elementary educational reality that all good teachers had discovered long before anyone theorized it. Are the differences in Vygotsky's and Meumann's interpretation of this elementary reality comparable to the relationship between Priestly and Lavoisier. The former using phlogiston theory within the 4 element aristotelian paradigm isolated the chemical element now known as Oxygen in experiments designed to isolate that Air that was required for Fire to occur. He called his "discovery": dephogistinated air..
   
  "What Lavoisier did indisputably do was to conduct the first adequate quantitative experiments on oxidation and give the first correct explanation of how combustion works.[32] He used these and similar experiments, all started in 1774, to discredit the Phlogiston theory and to prove that the substance discovered by Priestley and Scheele was a chemical element.." (Wikipedia; Oxygen)
   
  Kuhn identifies this moment as the triumph of a scientific revolution/paradigm shift that created modern chemistry, not so much for being the first to use quantitative procedures adequately, but for "discrediting phlogiston theory" and replacing the notions of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water with the concept of chemical elements.
   
  How did Meumann understand what was going on in that fuzzily-bounded interaction space; how does it differ from how Vygotsky understood it?
   
  Paul
  

Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
  I am pretty certain that one of Homer's assistant lute players was the first
to articulate
the idea of a zone of proximal development. But no one knew how to write it
down so they
had to depend upon singing tales, and we know how unreliable that is.

They say that Geothe was the first to suggest that "*Everything has
been **thought
of before*,* but the difficulty is to think of it again" ... under the right
circumstances (added by someone's alter ego).*

actually I think it was Goethe's mother, a remarkable woman, who first said
that, but she
was probably paraphrasing someone else.Vico perhaps? Or her own mom?

If I were looking for antecedents of academic pedigree the Valsiner book on
guided mind might be a place to look.

mlk
(happily, for this day, my initials in Russian)

On Jan 21, 2008 9:12 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:

> David et al., Google turns up some interesting possibilities on Meumann:
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/tr1602w137117l42/
>
> http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9556(192304)34%3A2%3C271%3AEM1%3E2.0.C
> O%3B2-W
>
> http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Bibliographie_Ernst_Meumann-ISBN_9783883090337.ht
> ml?isrc=b-search
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Meumann
> same page translated into English by a machine:
>
> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/
>
> wiki/Ernst_Meumann&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DE
> rnst%2BMeumann%2B%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4SKPB_enUS234US234
> http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/m/meumann_e.shtml
> same page translated into English by a machine:
>
> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bautz.de/bbkl
>
> /m/meumann_e.shtml&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DE
> rnst%2BMeumann%2B%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4SKPB_enUS234US234
>
>
>
>
> Peter Smagorinsky
> The University of Georgia
> 125 Aderhold Hall
> Athens, GA 30602
> smago@uga.edu/phone:706-542-4507
> http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of David Kellogg
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42 AM
> To: xcma
> Subject: [xmca] Another Claim That LSV Did Not Originate the ZPD
>
> Last night I was reading the new book by M.E. Gredler and C.C. Shields,
> "Vygotsky's Legacy: A foundation for research and practice" (New York and
> London: Guilford Press).
>
> On p. 84 they write:
>
> "Vygotsky referred to the second diagnostic task as that of identifying
> the child's ZPDs (p. 201), a concept from Ernst Meumann and other
> psychologists."
>
> The p. 201 reference is apparently to vol. 5 of the Collected Works.
> There
> is no reference to Meumann and of course nothing to "other psychologists".
>
> This is not the first time I've seen the claim that LSV did not originate
> the ZPD. We find similar in
>
> Gillen, J. 2000: Versions of Vygotsky. British Journal of Educational
> Studies 48 (2), 183-198.
>
> And also in Peter Langford's book:
>
> Langford, P.E. 2005: Vygotsky¡¯s developmental and educational
> psychology.
> Hove and New York: Psychology Press.
>
> But neither Gillen nor Langford actually named a name. Does anyone know
> anything about Ernst Meumann and why he might be considered the originator
> of the ZPD?
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
>
>
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Received on Mon Jan 21 11:30 PST 2008