Re: [Fwd: Re: [xmca] E-Learning article from TC Record]

First we have to make available Andy's power point and oral presentation
from here at XMCA.
We are awaiting more materials.
Then it would be great to talk and we can do something like the Helinki-LCHC
discussion
which will further our search for understandings.
In the meantime, we can practice using skype and figuring out what we have
to do technically
when it comes to to chat.
The resulting archive of discussions should be a rich sources of ideas. In
this regard, there seems no particular reason for people to interact only
via English. There seem to be so
many interesting discussions to be had by Portuguese and Spanish
speaker/reader/writer.
It all seems doable cheaply, given forbearance for local ineficiency.
mike
On Dec 27, 2007 11:06 AM, <laires@univ-ab.pt> wrote:

> Ok, Mike!
> Let's discuss Andy´s Subject.
>
> Luísa
>
> On Dec 27, 2007 10:38 AM, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Lots of time, Laires. Coordination of schedules is always a problem.
> Meantime, we are sort of in the middle of our own local experiment in
> multi-dimensionalizing~the XMCA discussion. Here at UCSD we are awaiting
> materials where others contribute to the multilogue and have digitalized
> part or all of Davd's team's presentation. First, the holidays which end
> here for academics about Jan 7.
>
> Yrjo and I are planning to have a joint Laboratory meeting again some time
> in February, or maybe its march.
>
> So, there is much to build upon.
> mike
>
> Meantime, we have the ongoing XMCA thread on Andy's Subject
>
> --------------------------- Mensagem Original ----------------------------
> Assunto: Re: [xmca] E-Learning article from TC Record
> De: laires@univ-ab.pt
> Data: Qui, Dezembro 27, 2007 6:23 pm
> Para: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi Mike
> That's a good idea. January is a difficult month for me… February would be
> better!
> I wish XMCA folks a happy new year;-)
>
> Luísa
>
>
> > Hi Luisa--
> >
> > So lets have a joint seminar in January! If we use Skype we could have
> > several XMCA folks
> > interested in this topic present. OR, you could give a talk to LCHC and
> we
> > could discuss . Then we could record and
> > make available to all.
> >
> > Optimism needs to be fed by success. So lets create some success.
> > mike
> >
> > On Dec 22, 2007 3:47 PM, <laires@univ-ab.pt> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi everyone
> >> Jay presents us very interesting questions about online learning: "Why
> >> do
> >> we imagine that learning goals must come first, and that social
> >> relationships are then brought in only secondarily in online learning?
> >> Would it not be productive to reverse this (in order to restore a more
> >> balanced dialectic for change and development) and imagine that FIRST
> >> one
> >> needs to build a social community to which people come to participate
> in
> >> interesting activities with others they like, admire, or feel
> challenged
> >> by? And THEN we can expect significant learning to ALSO happen, and
> >> start
> >> to think about how it might be democratically shaped and guided within
> >> such a community?
> >>
> >> Online Education restores social dimension to distance education,
> >> strongly
> >> diminished by some traditional distance education models. Usually it is
> >> believed that learning goals come first and only then social relations
> >> should be considered. Perhaps this is due to the fact that our
> educative
> >> models are still connected to a cartesian perspective. We frequently
> >> separate cognition and emotion, disregarding the last one; we separate
> >> individual and social dimension of learning, enhancing the first one
> and
> >> minimizing the second one. From my point of view, learning goals and
> >> social relation shouldn't be ranked but they should coexist in a
> >> dialectical relationship.
> >> Michael and Paul point out a question that will be the greatest
> >> challenge
> >> of online education (specially for the researchers that "Educate in the
> >> Internet"): the control and centralization of communication and
> >> learning.
> >> As Mike says, it's impossible to foresee the potential uses of the
> >> internet to mediate education in the next decade. However I feel
> >> optimistic about the future. The use of distributed and collaborative
> >> educative models will enable us to re-evaluate teachers and students´
> >> roles and even to question traditional power of science on learning.
> Are
> >> we facing the emergence of a new educational paradigm? What's your
> >> opinion
> >> about this issue?
> >>
> >> Luísa Aires
> >> (Univ. Aberta, Portugal)
> >>
> >> > I cannot contribute reducing Michael's frustrations, but I believe it
> >> is
> >> > really unclear what the potential uses of the internet to mediate
> >> > education
> >> > will become in the next
> >> > decade, but I hope that those who theorize these matters will take
> >> into
> >> > considertion the considerable positive educational experiences we
> have
> >> > been
> >> > able to use
> >> > by connecting colleges classes to each other, running live,
> >> interactive,
> >> > clasess with an "up close" , almost face-face feel to them, to small
> >> joint
> >> > seminars where it
> >> > really does feel "face to face"...... the distance and technical
> >> > mediation
> >> > becomes transparent and great education can occur.
> >> >
> >> > Even Skype, which is currently free in many parts of the world, has
> >> > enabled
> >> > some great academic discussions at great distance that otherwise
> would
> >> not
> >> > take place at all.
> >> >
> >> > These are very modest beginning, but they have been very successful
> >> > beginnings, of new forms of international academic discouses on
> topics
> >> of
> >> > concern..
> >> >
> >> > mike
> >> >
> >> > On Dec 17, 2007 10:03 AM, Paul Dillon <phd_crit_think@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Michael,
> >> >>
> >> >> You wrote: "Can we handle promoting an education model
> >> >> that we can't control?"
> >> >>
> >> >> Doesn't the answer to this question depend on who is incuded in the
> >> >> "we"?
> >> >> It's pretty clear that the system that produces "experts" will have
> >> a
> >> >> hard
> >> >> time handling it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Paul
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu> wrote:
> >> >> Jay,
> >> >>
> >> >> This is a fascinating issue. I find two cultures developing with a
> >> deep
> >> >> divide between them. There is the culture that wants to educate
> using
> >> >> the
> >> >> internet and there is the culture that is already using the internet
> >> to
> >> >> educate. To be honest I found the recent article in TCR on the
> >> internet
> >> >> and
> >> >> education to be really frustrating, talking about metaphors like the
> >> Web
> >> >> and
> >> >> Delivery Truck and such. What is interesting is that I never read
> >> these
> >> >> terms from people who are actually engaging on and participating
> with
> >> >> the
> >> >> internet rather than talking about the internet and what we should
> be
> >> >> doing
> >> >> with the internet. Education on the internet from what I can tell
> has
> >> >> grown
> >> >> both exponentially, but also organically. I don't think anybody
> could
> >> >> have
> >> >> imagined the culture and the relationships surrounding blogs (not a
> >> >> metaphor
> >> >> but an actual description web logs, like the other terms that are
> >> >> generally
> >> >> used such as linkages, blogosphere, and net neutrality). The level
> of
> >> >> education that is
> >> >> occurring is amazing, right now surrounding primarily politics, but
> >> >> also
> >> >> including health, and food, and the arts - but it can't help but
> >> expand
> >> >> -
> >> >> and it has an extraordinary momentum. There are also the wiki
> >> platforms,
> >> >> most relevant wikipedia. Wikipedia is an example of how education on
> >> the
> >> >> internet grows organically. For those of you who don't know the
> >> history,
> >> >> wikipedia was originally meant to be an expert driven online
> >> >> encyclopedia.
> >> >> But while they were collecting experts they put together a wiki
> >> platform
> >> >> to
> >> >> discuss possible topics. There was such interest in the wiki version
> >> >> that
> >> >> the expert driven encyclopedia was jettisoned. Now google is
> >> attempting
> >> >> to
> >> >> develop gnoll, which is again an online, expert driven encyclopedia,
> >> but
> >> >> more advanced than what was originally proposed. Some think this
> will
> >> >> mean
> >> >> the end of wikipedia, but anybody who has really been paying
> >> attention
> >> >> knows
> >> >> that there is absolutely no way to know.
> >> >>
> >> >> And yet when I talk to people within the university of this new
> world
> >> I
> >> >> become as frustrated as I did reading the TCR article. Not only does
> >> >> there
> >> >> seem to be a need to keep knowledge centralized (which works against
> >> the
> >> >> natural tendencies of communication on the internet - and physicists
> >> are
> >> >> actually doing research to examine this), but there is also a real
> >> fear
> >> >> of
> >> >> loss of information - that somehow people can't be trust with
> >> >> information
> >> >> that is not vetted by experts. The best blogs are written by an
> >> eclectic
> >> >> group of people, many brilliant but on the margins or outside of
> >> >> academia.
> >> >> Can we handle promoting an education model that we can't control?
> >> >>
> >> >> Michael
> >> >>
> >> >> ________________________________
> >> >>
> >> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Jay Lemke
> >> >> Sent: Sun 12/16/2007 4:52 PM
> >> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] E-Learning article from TC Record
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I was pleased to see this issue raised by Luisa
> >> >> Aires. Her message came just as I was
> >> >> corresponding online with Cesar Coll in Barcelona
> >> >> about visiting again with his project analyzing
> >> >> learning from records of online university courses.
> >> >>
> >> >> I also advised Ulric Bjorck in Sweden a few years
> >> >> ago on an analysis of a similar sort. In both
> >> >> cases some students participated both in online
> >> >> learning and in face-to-face seminars in the same
> >> >> course. In Australia, when I consulted for some
> >> >> projects there (at Deakin University and
> >> >> elsewhere), this mixed approach was then called "open learning".
> >> >>
> >> >> Luisa asks how distance education and online
> >> >> learning or open learning can be more responsive
> >> >> to the perspective and interests of the student
> >> >> (a la the Bologna ideals), and I think she is
> >> >> right to signal the importance of online social networks and
> >> identities.
> >> >>
> >> >> Too often, our online educational forums and
> >> >> learning environments are simply "broadcast"
> >> >> models -- a central controlling source, the
> >> >> professor or course committee, puts out the
> >> >> readings, the topics, the deadlines for
> >> >> participation, etc. At most, the students may
> >> >> raise unexpected questions, but they have little
> >> >> initiative, and the whole activity is defined as
> >> >> "work", not play, and so, in our dominant
> >> >> (non-Vygotskyan) approach, as not "social" either.
> >> >>
> >> >> But there is interesting research (e.g. by
> >> >> Diepstraten and DuBois-Reymond in the
> >> >> Netherlands) on alternate learning biographies,
> >> >> which shows that many successful young (i.e. 20s
> >> >> and 30s now, looking back) learners found formal
> >> >> schooling an obstacle and the learning they
> >> >> actually use in their lives came more through
> >> >> their social networks. Today, we know, those
> >> >> social networks are being formed as much or more
> >> >> online as in face--to-face encounters.
> >> >>
> >> >> Is it possible to design and conceptualize online
> >> >> learning, whether at a long distance or a short
> >> >> one, as PRIMARILY a social activity, which has
> >> >> significant learning as just one aspect, almost
> >> >> as a side-effect or an after-thought?
> >> >>
> >> >> If you consider online communities like Whyville
> >> >> (for learners at about age 10-15), which were
> >> >> designed for science and math learning, but in an
> >> >> informal way (cf. the offline 5th Dimension and
> >> >> Clase Magica projects), research by Yasmin Kafai
> >> >> at UCLA shows that social networking activity is
> >> >> a predominant motivation and occupation of
> >> >> participants, who also do online activities
> >> >> whereby they learn some things our official
> >> >> curriculum may value. In many other online
> >> >> communities, like xmca, we find people as
> >> >> interested in social contact as in learning. The
> >> >> large communities built around computer games are
> >> >> often like this, organized into "guilds" which
> >> >> not only plan adventures together, but also serve
> >> >> to apprentice newcomers and teach them how to play better.
> >> >>
> >> >> Why do we imagine that learning goals must come
> >> >> first, and that social relationships are then
> >> >> brought in only secondarily in online learning?
> >> >> Would it not be productive to reverse this (in
> >> >> order to restore a more balanced dialectic for
> >> >> change and development) and imagine that FIRST
> >> >> one needs to build a social community to which
> >> >> people come to participate in interesting
> >> >> activities with others they like, admire, or feel
> >> >> challenged by? And THEN we can expect significant
> >> >> learning to ALSO happen, and start to think about
> >> >> how it might be democratically shaped and guided within such a
> >> >> community?
> >> >>
> >> >> JAY.
> >> >>
> >> >> PS. The Meyer article cited by Luisa is freely
> >> >> available online, from 2005, and its official citation is:
> >> >> Teachers College Record Volume 107 Number 8, 2005, p. 1601-1625.
> >> >> [I have some reservations about the Lakoff
> >> >> approach to cultural metaphors, but it can
> >> >> stimulate reflexive thinking about the biases
> >> >> built into our common discourses on a topic.]
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> At 03:58 PM 12/16/2007, you wrote:
> >> >> >Hi Mike & All
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Regarding the expansion of Internet, when we think about Distance
> >> >> >Education we also think about online education and e-learning. This
> >> new
> >> >> >way of Educating is suffering a fast diffusion and it's usually
> seen
> >> as
> >> >> a
> >> >> >business area. These two facts have strongly influenced the
> >> discourses
> >> >> and
> >> >> >practices. There are several checklists suggesting ways to offer a
> >> >> >successful online education; we can also find romantic
> perspectives,
> >> >> which
> >> >> >consider that online education will solve all life long learning
> >> >> problems.
> >> >> > However, these light points of view do not answer the demands of
> >> >> online
> >> >> >education actors (the same way they have never answered to the
> >> >> >expectations of face to face educational actors).
> >> >> >Metadiscoursive analysis may help to deconstruct some myths related
> >> to
> >> >> >online education. Katrina Meyer's article "Common Metaphors and
> >> Their
> >> >> >Impact on Distance Education...(http://www.tcrecord.org ) points
> out
> >> >> some
> >> >> >metaphors that show us another perspective about online distance
> >> >> >education.
> >> >> >In European Universities, "Bologna process" privileges the
> student's
> >> >> role
> >> >> >. But we can't forget that these students belong to cultural and
> >> social
> >> >> >networks that construct their identity. Therefore it is important
> >> for
> >> >> >online education researches to be developed according to
> theoretical
> >> >> >references such us CHAT and Sociocultural Theory. As far as
> >> Vygotski's
> >> >> >perspective is concerned it is important to explore how students
> >> learn,
> >> >> in
> >> >> >which settings they do it and also their motives, tools...
> >> Theoretical
> >> >> >source of neovygotskian research is a promising way to study online
> >> >> >education. How can we reinterpret online education (in University)
> >> in
> >> a
> >> >> >cultural historical view?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Best regards,
> >> >> >Luísa Aires
> >> >> >(Universidade Aberta, Portugal)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >> >xmca mailing list
> >> >> >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Jay Lemke
> >> >> Professor
> >> >> University of Michigan
> >> >> School of Education
> >> >> 610 East University
> >> >> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> >> >>
> >> >> Tel. 734-763-9276
> >> >> Email. JayLemke@UMich.edu
> >> >> Website. www.umich.edu/~jaylemke <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke><
> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
> >> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> xmca mailing list
> >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> xmca mailing list
> >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------
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> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > xmca mailing list
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
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Received on Thu Dec 27 11:29 PST 2007