Re: [xmca] Terms of Endearment

Good observations Tony,
   
  B**h II style is the phoney-homey, my idiocy proves we're a free and democratic people, snake oil, and he probably believes he's only faking that idiocy, a Darwinian paradigm, no epigenesis here. Bush I doesn't fit this bill at all, when he called Sadam Hussein "Sad Damn" with the accent on the Damn I think this more expressed the frustration that despite US backing, Hussein was running his own game. I think Bush I called him that because as far as he was concerned, the former ruler of Iraq was still their " boy".
   
  PAUL
   
  Tony Whitson <twhitson@UDel.Edu> wrote:
  In this connection, I'm interested in hearing peoples' ideas on what to
make of Bush's pointed references to Putin as "Vlad." I don't think we
ever heard Clinton publicly refer to Blair as "Tony," for example.

On the other hand, Bush's father did seem to make a point of using
"Saddam" as his way of referring to Hussein.

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Paul Dillon wrote:

> Karin,
>
> I think the reference to the Brazilian president as "Lula" relates to the global media culture. The media usually uses last names to indicate well-known heads of state. When one says "Chavez", "Bachelet", etc. everyone knows. And when one says "Bush" we all recognize the abbreviation: "Bu..sh...".
>
> Paul
>
> mktostes wrote:
> Very interesting thread indeed.
> The 'rules', as we can observe are not easy. Just to complement about how
> things go in Brazil. My daughter was just criticizing some Portuguese
> courses for foreigners the other day, saying that people don't use 'Senhor'
> (Mr.) and 'Senhora' (Mrs.) anymore. But it depends on who you are speaking
> to, the age and power/social relations.
>
> As for the president, the media keeps using LULA, so we would address him as
> Lula. It would be strange to do otherwise. But I don't think people would
> use 'você' when talking to him, but 'senhor', indicating respect.
>
> The title here is used with the first name: Senhor (more often 'seu')
> Antonio, for example and 'dona' Lucia. Sometimes people are known by their
> last name, so you can hear "Seu Pereira". Or with a nickname or even the
> shortened name "Seu Zé", for instance.
>
> 'Senhor' and 'Senhora' are normally used without the name, indicating
> respect. So, one can say "O que o Senhor/Senhora deseja?" (What would you
> like?); "Sim senhor/Sim senhora". Similarly to Spanish, as mentioned by
> Paul. Older generations tend to use 'senhor/senhora' more often because
> that's the way things used to be back then and that's how they were taught
> to show respect.
>
> And... we can never forget intonation. Depending on your intonation, using
> 'Senhor/Senhora' or 'Seu/Dona' means you are angry and not being polite.
>
> As for students. My students normally call me 'professora' Karin or teacher.
> They rarely address me by my first name alone and many of them use 'senhora'
> when talking to me and not 'você', but I don't like being called 'senhora'
> because it makes me feel old 0-0.
>
> Karin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Dillon"
>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 11:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Terms of Endearment
>
>
> Ana,
>
> I'm reading the posts since yesterday afternoon and just before reading
> your post, it occurred to post about the terms "Don" or "Donha", which are
> still very common in the Andean highlands. I've been thinking about the
> relationships between the U.S. address forms "Mister", "Misses"/"Sir"
> "Madam". "Señor or Señora" are the terms used
> with a last name and so are like "Mr. and Mrs." but unlike the latter, one
> can use the Spanish terms by themselves. "Si Señor" which doesn't work at
> all with "Mr.", one doesn't say, yes Mr. but "yes Sir". Sometime in
> English, Mr. does stand alone but only when its use connotes and absolute
> authority relationship as in, "Do it now, Mister, or else". The one using
> the term treating the other in an absoutely non-dialogic way
>
> On the other hand, "Don o Doña", bracketing for now their historical uses
> and associations with "buenas familias", etc., are used in the central
> Andes with the first name, and like "Mr. or Mrs.", they can't stand along as
> far as I know. They are also used across status/class boundaries, a form
> for indicating respect but a more intimate respect.
>
> For me this difference encapsulates a very fundamental difference in the
> patterns of interpersonal relations between English and SpanishPortugese
> American speech communities.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Ana Paula B. R. Cortez" wrote:
> Dear David (Professor Kellog? Mr Kellog? Mr David?),
>
> Although being part of western culture as well, we, Brazilians, suffer from
> what we can call " the extreme intimacy syndrome". We never, ever, call
> anyone by their surname. Have you ever noticed that those football star
> T-shirts display names such as "Ronaldinho", "Kaka", "Romario", "Pelé"? Has
> anyone ever wondered why it is so? Blame the syndrome. What about the
> president of the country? Luis Inácio LULA da Silva? Even the nickname was
> included in his name. Nobody calls him "Mr Silva", but Lula. If I were to
> address to him, I'd never call him "Sir" (sorry, it's part of the local
> culture).
>
> Now, picture the difficulties I find when I am teaching. I work at two
> different contexts: at university, where (of course!) I should be called
> "Mrs Cortez", but all I get is "Ana" (I don't even bother asking them to
> call me differently); and at a bilingual school, where (supposedly) the
> environment should be English-speaking only. Ok, most of them call me "Mrs
> Cortez" there, but then there are more chances of my being called "Mrs
> Corta", "Cortez", "Mrs" etc... new nicknames!
>
> As you said, we don't teach "English", but human interaction. If I'm to
> interact with students that are using the language in a context where terms
> of endearment are very intimate, I believe I have to be careful to emphasize
> that it could never happen in an English-speaking country, only in Brazil.
> So, I warn them to use the proper titles when in Canada, USA, UK,
> Australian, wherever abroad.
>
> However, the other way is a funny thing too: what do foreigners do when in
> Korea? If Koreans are supposed to follow and respect English-speaking
> countries protocol, do English speakers do the same when in Korea? All I can
> tell you is that we have a fun time speaking to foreigners here in Brazil,
> they just can't get too intimate! And feel like fish out of water...
>
> I'm not following any theory here, it is just my own way of thinking: if in
> Rome, do like the Romans. This is human interaction.
>
> Now, I don't know how I'm supposed to close the message. What should I
> write? Regards? Best Wishes? Or, something more daring, like Brazilians:
> Xoxo? Whatever!
>
> Ana Paula
>
> David Kellogg escreveu:
> Dear Mike:
>
> The problem is that there are cultures (including ours) where it's really
> TOO intimate to address a colleague by their first name. In most families in
> Korea, a younger brother doesn't use the first name of an older brother
> though the older brother may use that of the younger (just as parents may
> use their children's first names but not vice versa in the West). I can
> never get my students to call me anything but "Professor Kellogg" even
> though I am really only a lecturer (and that's why we address everybody
> except Mike as "Professor" in our contribution to the discussion on
> development).
>
> I gather from Paul's comments that "dear" as a letter salutation is also
> considered too intimate now, which was certainly not true when I left the
> USA more or less permanently in the early 1980s.
>
> In English teaching we try (very stupidly) to teach terms of address as a
> set of rules, e.g.
>
> a) WHERE INTIMATE: Never use a FIRST name with a title (except that of
> course here in Korea the last name comes first and the first name comes
> last)
>
> b) WHERE NOT INTIMATE: Never use a LAST name without a title (ditto).
>
> This succeeds in utterly confusing our learners and erects huge barriers to
> human interaction where none previously existed. Language is NOT a set of
> rules--not even grammar "rules" are rules, and to to try to teach respect
> and collegiality as a set of rules is almost a contradiction in terms (since
> rules will inevitably involve a clash between MY rules and YOURS and the way
> I end up expressing my respect for you involves NOT respecting your rules).
>
> So what do I teach? Human interaction, of course. You ask somebody how to
> address them and then you forget your own bloody rules and just do what they
> tell you to do. In fact, a question like "What do I call you?" is EASIER to
> teach than the so-called "rules" above. But most importantly it is clearly
> LIMITING and LIMITED in a way that so-called rules are not. It's concrete
> and personal, one might almost say intimate, as human interactions have to
> be.
>
> Last night I was reading Paul Bloom's book "How Children Learn the Meanings
> of Words" (MIT: 2001). He has a "rules and words" paradigm for language, so
> he spends some of the latter part of the book smirking at those of us who
> consider rules and words negotiable and not innate.
>
> He cites the following parody of the Whorfian (and Vygotskyan) position on
> p. 244.
>
> Whorfian: Eskimos are greatly infuenced by their language in their
> perception of snow. for example, they have N words for snow whereas English
> only has none. Having all these different words makes them think of snow
> very differently than Americans do.
> Skeptic: How do you know they think differently than Americans do?
> Whorfian: Look at all the words they have for snow!
>
> First of all, if Inuit who see snow every day have exactly the same
> perception of snow as Americans who have never seen snow in their lives, it
> is the skeptics and not the Whorfians who have some tough explaining to do.
> Secondly, there is really NOTHING circular about language being both cause
> and effect: the language of previous generations is an effect for them and a
> cause for us. In the same way, a question like "What do I call you?" is both
> effect and cause, and so is its effect, namely the answer. What's so hard
> about that?
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
>
> PS:
>
> Actually, Paul, though I am not a Stones fan, at heart I am a street
> fightin' man like you.... But you can see that our Dear Mike takes his
> pastoral duties on this list very seriously indeed, and that's surely one
> reason why the list is such a nice quiet place to work.
>
> dk
>
>
>
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Tony Whitson
UD School of Education
NEWARK DE 19716

twhitson@udel.edu
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Received on Mon Dec 17 09:53 PST 2007