RE: [xmca] Terms of Endearment

Yes a rebuke, but a kind hearted one - as a mother myself, I get to live
both sides of the equation (child and mother).

These two roles show evidence of, to consider this in activity theory
terms, a primary contradiction :)

Louise

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]
Sent: Friday, 14 December 2007 02:20 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: RE: [xmca] Terms of Endearment

he, he! I can hear a quiet rebuke in your "yes mum" too! :) andy At
02:04 PM 14/12/2007 +1000, you wrote:
>This audience trumping is evident in a situation I have worked in for a

>number of years - that of working with my parents. In work situations
>with others present I use their first names (took a while to get used
>to doing this). Occasionally in the company of colleagues that I work
>with on a daily basis, something will get said which is a 'parental'
>comment, to which I reply "yes mum" (or 'yes dad' depending on the
>situation. My supervisor looked at me quizically the first time this
>happened, to which I replied: Sorry, but that was a mother statement :)
>
>The use of their first names also means that I am judged more on my own

>abilities rather than my abilities being attributed to my parents
>through a genetic link (although that is definitely there).
>
>Regards
>
>Louise Hawkins
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dale Cyphert [mailto:Dale.Cyphert@uni.edu]
>Sent: Friday, 14 December 2007 11:34 AM
>To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>Subject: Re: [xmca] Terms of Endearment
>
>Mike's post brings up an issue that is particularly salient for
>me...the "code switching" that goes on in the presence of others. One
>of the principles that I cover in my business communication course is
>that informal usage within the office (i.e. calling one's boss by
>his/her first name) does NOT extend to "public" venues. That is, when
>referring to the boss in the presence of upper management or customers,

>it is appropriate to revert to the formal title.
>
>I'm wondering whether this is a more universal principle, even given
>the variations on when the informal or formal are used in private. Is
>it always true that an "audience" of sorts trumps the relationship of
>the two speakers?
>
>dale
>
>Dale Cyphert, Ph.D.
>Associate Professor and Interim Head
>Department of Management
>University of Northern Iowa
>1227 W. 27th Street
>Cedar Falls, IA 50614-0125
>(319) 273-6150; fax (319) 2732922
>dale.cyphert@uni.edu
>
>
>
>Mike Cole wrote:
> > Interesting that this discussion has sparked so much interest,
> > perhaps
>
> > because we are all so familiar with the phenomenon but only know
> > some of its variations.
> >
> > In our afterschool work where we mix play and education and
> > friendship
>
> > and ...... the undergrads partner up with the kids and play an
> > intermediate role between them and the real authorities.
> > I am not in either of the main activities we are conducting, THE
> > authority when at the site. But I am usually the eldest and the
> > undergrads are in a system where Professor Cole or Dr. Cole is the
> > default.
> >
> > To create some space for me to participate at the sites, a system
> > has evolved over time where I am referred to as Dr. Mike or
> > Professor Mike. At one of our sites, (heavily African American) the
> > adults are expected to be referred to as Mr.
> > Danny or Ms. Veverly. But it was a struggle for people to actually
> > be able to call me Mr Mike and I am the undergrad's professor, so we

> > collectively settled on Professor Mike. But even then, the
> > directress,
>
> > whose rules these were, had a very hard time referring to me as
> > other than Professor Cole. Now we have gotten to know each other a
> > lot better and she is easy with Professor Mike when the kids are
around.
> > But if another adult is there? Professor Cole tends to pop out.
> >
> > My point in writing this is to suggest as (I think we all realize)
> > how
>
> > deeply cultural these conventions of address are, and how they
> > encapsulate power relations, forms of respect, local norms........
> > even when we move from one idiocultural system to another in a
> > single national/cultural system.
> >
> > The collection of examples has been great to read about.
> > mike
> > (in this idioculture)
> >
> > On Dec 13, 2007 4:51 PM, Paul Dillon <phd_crit_think@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >>yeah, "mate" also sounds so friendly, especially with an australian

> >>accent!
> >>
> >> "No worries, mate!"
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >>Geoff <geoffrey.binder@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> The Australian solution is my favorite, (and not just because I'm
> >>Australian, but because I often forget peoples names) and that's
mate.
> >>Mate can be used across gender and in all but the most formal of
> >>situations.
> >>
> >>On 13/12/2007, Kevin Rocap wrote:
> >>
> >>>So the more titles we can come up with for Mike, the more he is
> >>>like arctic snow. ;-) ????...as the driven snow? (or is this just a

> >>>snow
> >>>job?)
> >>>
> >>>In Peace,
> >>>K.
> >>>
> >>>Paul Dillon wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>David,
> >>>>
> >>>>The question of perception and language is pretty complictated.
> >>>>One of
> >>
> >>my first field work experiences involved tests of color perceptions
> >>among Mayan and Spanish speakers in the Yucatan. I haven't revisited

> >>that theme in a long time but I do remember those studies (kay,
> >>berlin?) showed a pretty consistent variation between the colors
> >>that people could remember and those they could successfully
> >>communicate to
>
> >>others and that these weren't the same between the two language
>groups.
> >>
> >>>>To me it seems obvious that Inuit or other arctic groups would not
> >>
> >>only have lots of different words for snow, but also would
> >>distinguish
>
> >>qualities of snow that folks who don't live in environments where
> >>snow
>
> >>is very important. Maybe these distinctions even involve the
> >>development of a concept of snow generative of snowy language and
> >>logics permitting an ontological relationship completely absent
> >>among,
>say, the Nuer.
> >>
> >>>>In Spanish the use of "tu" and "usted", seems related to the use
> >>>>of
> >>
> >>"Dr. Cole" and "mike", it's not fixed but situational, people with
> >>whom I use "tu" when drinking beer, I use "usted" in a faculty
> >>meeting. I think there might be situations in which mike is
> >>addressed as Dr. Cole, there might even be situations where he
> >>expects it. I
>wonder.
> >>
> >>>>Paul
> >>>>
> >>>>p.s., I've never thought of myself as a "street fighting man", a
> >>
> >>"midnight rambler" perhaps.
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>David Kellogg wrote:
> >>>>Dear Mike:
> >>>>
> >>>>The problem is that there are cultures (including ours) where it's
> >>
> >>really TOO intimate to address a colleague by their first name. In
> >>most families in Korea, a younger brother doesn't use the first name

> >>of an older brother though the older brother may use that of the
> >>younger (just as parents may use their children's first names but
> >>not vice versa in the West). I can never get my students to call me
> >>anything but "Professor Kellogg" even though I am really only a
> >>lecturer (and that's why we address everybody except Mike as
> >>"Professor" in our contribution to the discussion on development).
> >>
> >>>>I gather from Paul's comments that "dear" as a letter salutation
> >>>>is
> >>
> >>also considered too intimate now, which was certainly not true when
> >>I left the USA more or less permanently in the early 1980s.
> >>
> >>>>In English teaching we try (very stupidly) to teach terms of
> >>>>address
> >>
> >>as a set of rules, e.g.
> >>
> >>>>a) WHERE INTIMATE: Never use a FIRST name with a title (except
> >>>>that of
> >>
> >>course here in Korea the last name comes first and the first name
> >>comes
> >>last)
> >>
> >>>>b) WHERE NOT INTIMATE: Never use a LAST name without a title
>(ditto).
> >>>>
> >>>>This succeeds in utterly confusing our learners and erects huge
> >>
> >>barriers to human interaction where none previously existed.
> >>Language is NOT a set of rules--not even grammar "rules" are rules,
> >>and to to try to teach respect and collegiality as a set of rules is

> >>almost a contradiction in terms (since rules will inevitably involve

> >>a clash between MY rules and YOURS and the way I end up expressing
> >>my respect for you involves NOT respecting your rules).
> >>
> >>>>So what do I teach? Human interaction, of course. You ask somebody

> >>>>how
> >>
> >>to address them and then you forget your own bloody rules and just
> >>do what they tell you to do. In fact, a question like "What do I
> >>call you?" is EASIER to teach than the so-called "rules" above. But
> >>most importantly it is clearly LIMITING and LIMITED in a way that
> >>so-called
>
> >>rules are not. It's concrete and personal, one might almost say
> >>intimate, as human interactions have to be.
> >>
> >>>>Last night I was reading Paul Bloom's book "How Children Learn the
> >>
> >>Meanings of Words" (MIT: 2001). He has a "rules and words" paradigm
> >>for language, so he spends some of the latter part of the book
> >>smirking at those of us who consider rules and words negotiable and
>not innate.
> >>
> >>>>He cites the following parody of the Whorfian (and Vygotskyan)
> >>
> >>position on p. 244.
> >>
> >>>>Whorfian: Eskimos are greatly infuenced by their language in their
> >>
> >>perception of snow. for example, they have N words for snow whereas
> >>English only has none. Having all these different words makes them
> >>think of snow very differently than Americans do.
> >>
> >>>>Skeptic: How do you know they think differently than Americans do?
> >>>>Whorfian: Look at all the words they have for snow!
> >>>>
> >>>>First of all, if Inuit who see snow every day have exactly the
> >>>>same
> >>
> >>perception of snow as Americans who have never seen snow in their
> >>lives, it is the skeptics and not the Whorfians who have some tough
>explaining to do.
> >>Secondly, there is really NOTHING circular about language being both

> >>cause and effect: the language of previous generations is an effect
> >>for them and a cause for us. In the same way, a question like "What
> >>do
>
> >>I call you?" is both effect and cause, and so is its effect, namely
> >>the answer. What's so hard about that?
> >>
> >>>>David Kellogg
> >>>>Seoul National University of Education
> >>>>
> >>>>PS:
> >>>>
> >>>>Actually, Paul, though I am not a Stones fan, at heart I am a
> >>>>street
> >>
> >>fightin' man like you.... But you can see that our Dear Mike takes
> >>his
>
> >>pastoral duties on this list very seriously indeed, and that's
> >>surely one reason why the list is such a nice quiet place to work.
> >>
> >>>>dk
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>---------------------------------
> >>>>Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>xmca mailing list
> >>>>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>---------------------------------
> >>>>Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>xmca mailing list
> >>>>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>xmca mailing list
> >>>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Geoffrey Binder
> >>BA (SS) La Trobe, BArch (Hons) RMIT
> >>PhD Candidate
> >>Global Studies, Social Sciences and Planning RMIT Ph B. 9925 9951 M.
> >>0422 968 567 _______________________________________________
> >>xmca mailing list
> >>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------
> >>Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
> >>Search.
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>xmca mailing list
> >>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>_______________________________________________
>xmca mailing list
>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>_______________________________________________
>xmca mailing list
>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca

  Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
mobile 0409 358 651

_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
Received on Thu Dec 13 21:53 PST 2007