I love your "concrete" example, Jay.
I got involved in xmca c. 1995 when I took on the job of looking after
teaching spaces at the University of Melbourne. Talking to teaching staff I
became aware that the buildings and rooms themselves, equipment and the
whole organisation and conception of teaching infrastructure was stuck in
the 1960s, the last time the relevant architects and administrators had had
anything to do with a lecture theatre. A 7-year project of changing
consciousness, policy documents, financial arrangements and organisational
structures at *every* level then followed, with me pushing from underneath
the whole time. That experience has always formed for me the paradigmatic
example of the mediation of learning and communication by material
artefacts. ... and that didn't even get to content, course design and
teaching practice.
Andy
At 08:13 PM 17/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>I am a bit busy right now, but it would be interesting to consider a
>specific example.
>
>One thing I had in mind was, for example, the difficulty and long
>timescale involved in changing teaching practices in classrooms. A teacher
>might have discussion with students mediated not just by words, but also
>by items in a textbook (diagrams, photos, written questions, tables of
>information, etc.) . The forms that the discussion takes, and the
>existence of textbooks (as a genre and as material objects) depends on
>community norms, divisions of labor, etc. Think what it takes to get major
>changes in textbooks throughout a school district, state, or country.
>Think what it would take to change the genre of the textbook to say
>something dialogic (ala Plato or Galileo) rather than monlogical, both in
>terms of the attitudes and thinking of large numbers of people, and in
>terms of the writing, production, and distribution of the new kinds of
>books. Think about the form of the infamous Question-Answer-Evaluation
>speech genre in classrooms (IRE or IRF, famously analyzed for pro's as
>well as con's by Gordon), how its perpetuation is grounded in the
>experience in school of whole generations, and in what is taught in
>teacher education institutions (along with standard formats of lesson
>plans, etc.). Think how these practices depend even on the
>micro-architecture of classrooms (teacher in front, rows of desks) and
>what it would take materially, as well as in design norms, to change it.
>(Yes, I know there are other patterns, but none are yet a dominant norm, I
>think).
>
>So the "weight" at the bottom of the triangle gets translated into a lot
>of very concrete mediators (books of specific genres, utterances and
>exchanges in specific speech genres, arrangements of furniture, written
>lesson plans, etc.) that not only mediate between teacher and student, but
>also in a different sense mediate between the macrosocial and the
>microsocial, between the collective institutions (in the technical
>sociological sense) at the bottom of the big triangle, and the
>interpersonal joint activity actions at the top.
>
>In many ways what I am trying to describe is a Latourian elaboration on
>the multiscale social dynamics that the triangles represent.
>
>JAY.
>
>
>At 10:38 PM 10/16/2007, you wrote:
>>I think that idea is really worth thingking about, Jay. Can you give us a
>>concrete expample
>>to think with? The general idea is appealing.
>>mike
>>
>>On 10/16/07, Jay Lemke <jaylemke@umich.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > An interesting point, certainly, that we _do_ reify these things, in
>> > many ways, and it is through those reifications, and not as
>> > abstractions, that rules, norms, divisions of labor, etc. have their
>> > material mediations for us.
>> >
>> > We write down laws, we mouth aphorisms, we have indeed got road
>> > signs, and markers of class divisions and gender divisions, and media
>> > advertising and photos to show which toys go with boys and which with
>> > girls, etc. etc.
>> >
>> > How then do these mediations differ from those at the top center of
>> > the triangle? all mediations are surely both material and semiotic,
>> > but those that run vertically are frequently repeated, they become
>> > typical of communities, and not just ad hoc improvisations of a
>> > moment. As such, their dynamics, the timescales on which they change
>> > (and don't change), are quite different. In Latour's terms, their
>> > networks are "longer", or materially speaking, there is a lot more
>> > "mass" at stake, more people, more tool-making engines, more fat and
>> > thin wallets, more prisons and uniforms and weapons. More badges of
>> > rank, more paper flowing through chains of command, more social
>> > geography of big and small houses built near and far to one another,
>> > with more or less garbage in their streets.
>> >
>> > Those social realities down at the bottom represent a lot more "weight".
>> >
>> > What do you think?
>> >
>> > JAY.
>> >
>> >
>> > At 08:13 PM 10/14/2007, you wrote:
>> > >At 07:05 PM 14/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>> > >>I agree with Mike that mediation, in some sense(s), occurs not just
>> > >>through tools, but also via more community level "culture". The
>> > >>problem, I think, is to not simply reify abstractions like rules,
>> > >>norms, division of labor, etc.,
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >... or on the other hand, to see how rules, norms, division of
>> > >labor, etc., *are* reified (or objectified), and why people act in
>> > >line with them as if they were written down like road signs?
>> > >
>> > >Andy
>> > >
>> > >>but, again as Mike recommends, to see how they play out in concrete
>> > >>cases. From such cases we can try to build a repertoire of
>> > >>different ways in which these community-level mediations occur.
>> > >>
>> > >>In the genre/SFL/register approach that Gordon recommends, and that
>> > >>Ruqaiya Hasan also commented on, one way to see such mediations is
>> > >>through the ways in which different "social voices" (ala Bakhtin)
>> > >>or textual genres, which have their manifestations in talk and
>> > >>texts at the apex of the top triangle, themselves translate
>> > >>divisions of labor and opinion, or social norms, in the community
>> > >>(or communities) into concrete practices ... such as in Bakhtin's
>> > >>notion of heteroglossia, which has both a sociology of social
>> > >>divisions aspect and also an "axiological" one, which manifests
>> > >>social norms, attitudes, values, etc. According to SFL discourse
>> > >>theory, we ought then to expect to see these lower-triangle
>> > >>mediations show up in genre and register differences, right down to
>> > >>the level of linguistic choices and frequency distributions.
>> > >>
>> > >>If there is, among the waiting queue of papers-seeking-comment on
>> > >>xmca, any which offer us concrete cases where we might pursue these
>> > >>possibilities, I'd be very interested to see them. Especially if
>> > >>they contain any specific data on language-using or other
>> > >>sign-using practices in concrete joint-action activities where the
>> > >>norms and practices of one or more communities are being brought
>> > >>together (uneasily? or too easily?).
>> > >>
>> > >>Heracleitus wrote that 'the road up and the road down are the same
>> > >>road', and maybe in triangle-land the way across runs through such
>> > >>up-and-down roads. I sure know that my own research does!
>> > >>
>> > >>JAY.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>At 12:36 PM 10/14/2007, you wrote:
>> > >>>In a discussion with Gordon that was mostly about other matters I
>> > raised the
>> > >>>issue of the extent to which it is appropriate to think of the
>> > mediations in
>> > >>>Yrjo's expanded triangle as only occuring through the apex, and where
>> > >>>subject-subject mediated interaction (including discourse) was not also
>> > >>>represented there. Don't social rules mediate the activity and
>> > person-person
>> > >>>interactions. Are there not pathways of mediations from subject to
>> > community
>> > >>>AND to mediators at the top?
>> > >>>
>> > >>>I have been thinking how important it is when using these highly
>> > abstract
>> > >>>representations to rise to concrete examples and, having done so, to
>> > compare
>> > >>>the ways in which different representation highlight different features
>> > of
>> > >>>the overall system in a way that is more complentary than
>> > contradictory.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Are people about done with a focus on Gordon's article? There are a
>> > couple
>> > >>>of people who might benefit from having their work read and discussed
>> > on
>> > >>>XMCA and want advice.
>> > >>>I am happy to stay with Gordon's piece which has been a rich source of
>> > >>>discussion, but if people want to put it into the store of
>> > >>>to-be-returned-to-when-needed contributions, we might put up something
>> > new
>> > >>>where junior folks are seeking critique and advice.
>> > >>>mike
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>On 10/13/07, Jay Lemke <jaylemke@umich.edu> wrote:
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > After a way-too-busy last several weeks, I've finally caught up with
>> > >>> > reading a lot of xmca posts, and especially those about Gordon
>> > Wells'
>> > >>> > article on discoursing as an operational mediation of activities.
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > I generally agree with Gordon's point of view, but with some
>> > >>> > exceptions and a few shifts in conceptual framework. As this was
>> > >>> > obviously a very complex topic, I'm just going to make a few points
>> > >>> > here and attach the notes I wrote to myself to articulate my own
>> > >>> > position in more detail.
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > We surely do need better ways to talk about both the similarities
>> > and
>> > >>> > the differences in how activity is mediated by talk vs. artifactual
>> > >>> > tools. Both are indeed material, and both are, I believe, also
>> > >>> > potentially (though tools not always so in practice) semiotic. The
>> > >>> > ways in which they are mediational for an activity may be more
>> > >>> > constitutive (the activity unthinkable apart from them) or more
>> > >>> > optionally instrumental (the activity may be clumsy or fail without
>> > >>> > them, but can be imagined without them). Signs are one kind of tool.
>> > >>> > Or better said, I think, material objects or material processes
>> > (like
>> > >>> > phonation) can be used-as-tools-in-activity, and are not
>> > >>> > tools-as-such except when used-as-tools-in-activity, and likewise
>> > for
>> > >>> > tools that are (or are also) used-as-signs-in-activity. The special
>> > >>> > character of sign-use distinguishing it from non-semiotic tool-use
>> > >>> > has to do with the difference between the material
>> > >>> > affordances-for-use of tool-qualities as such and the possible
>> > social
>> > >>> > meanings of those qualities and ways-of-using. This is key and
>> > >>> > complex, and it's the main subject of the attached notes.
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > I am not so clear about Gordon's proposal to take talk-in-activity
>> > as
>> > >>> > operation-level in Leontiev's sense. I've always thought that there
>> > >>> > have to be more than just three levels in the analysis of an
>> > >>> > activity, even if the relations between operations and actions, vs.
>> > >>> > the different kinds of relations between actions and activities, are
>> > >>> > key to understanding the possible types of relations among the many
>> > >>> > levels. Within talk, there are already many levels, articulating
>> > >>> > among themselves in both the sound-to-word way and in the
>> > >>> > sentence-to-paragraph way (cf. 'double articulation' in classic
>> > >>> > linguistic theory). And between talk and larger activities in which
>> > >>> > it is embedded and for which it is constitutive or instrumental to
>> > >>> > some degree, there are also multiple levels of (or links in a chain
>> > >>> > of) interpretance, ala Peirce. More on this in the notes.
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > I've always appreciated Gordon's dialogical version of Engestrom's
>> > >>> > triangles, based on his reading of Bakhtin (with which I mainly
>> > >>> > agree). But I wonder if in this formulation we don't somewhat
>> > >>> > background a key element of the top triangle -- that the use of
>> > >>> > mediational means is a digression, or displacement, from direct
>> > >>> > subject-on-object or here subject-on-subject action? It's a
>> > different
>> > >>> > activity with the mediation of tool or sign than without it, even if
>> > >>> > the same goal is reached. In the subject-on-subject version, while
>> > we
>> > >>> > can and should pay attention to the emergence of joint goals and
>> > >>> > outcomes, or on the conflict of goals, etc., I think the core issue
>> > >>> > is linguistic manipulation and control as a displacement from direct
>> > >>> > physical manipulation and control (though clearly we often do both,
>> > >>> > and this may be especially important in early development, as it is
>> > >>> > in learning/teaching bike riding, etc.). But we also need to think
>> > >>> > about how language, or sign-use in general, serves to directly
>> > >>> > influence the Other, and how it differs from, say, pushing them
>> > >>> > bodily or hitting them with a stick (tool). Differs both for the
>> > >>> > better, and for the worse, in terms of power and control, or
>> > >>> > resistance. My sense is that there is a lot in this more
>> > >>> > uncomfortable aspect of linguistic mediation to help us understand
>> > >>> > how and why signs are used in joint activity. Historically, not all
>> > >>> > joint activity has been voluntary.
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > I apologize for the occasional opacity of the attached notes where
>> > >>> > they reflect my inner-speech.
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > JAY.
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > Jay Lemke
>> > >>> > Professor
>> > >>> > University of Michigan
>> > >>> > School of Education
>> > >>> > 610 East University
>> > >>> > Ann Arbor, MI 48109
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > Tel. 734-763-9276
>> > >>> > Email. JayLemke@UMich.edu
>> > >>> > Website. <http://www.umich.edu/~jaylemke%A0>www.umich.edu/~jaylemke
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > _______________________________________________
>> > >>> > xmca mailing list
>> > >>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > >>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> >
>> > >>>_______________________________________________
>> > >>>xmca mailing list
>> > >>>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > >>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>Jay Lemke
>> > >>Professor
>> > >>University of Michigan
>> > >>School of Education
>> > >>610 East University
>> > >>Ann Arbor, MI 48109
>> > >>
>> > >>Tel. 734-763-9276
>> > >>Email. JayLemke@UMich.edu
>> > >>Website. <http://www.umich.edu/~jaylemke%A0>www.umich.edu/~jaylemke
>> > >>_______________________________________________
>> > >>xmca mailing list
>> > >>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > >>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >
>> > > Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380
>> > > 9435, mobile 0409 358 651
>> > >
>> > >_______________________________________________
>> > >xmca mailing list
>> > >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > Jay Lemke
>> > Professor
>> > University of Michigan
>> > School of Education
>> > 610 East University
>> > Ann Arbor, MI 48109
>> >
>> > Tel. 734-763-9276
>> > Email. JayLemke@UMich.edu
>> > Website. <http://www.umich.edu/~jaylemke%A0>www.umich.edu/~jaylemke
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > xmca mailing list
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >
>>_______________________________________________
>>xmca mailing list
>>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>Jay Lemke
>Professor
>University of Michigan
>School of Education
>610 East University
>Ann Arbor, MI 48109
>
>Tel. 734-763-9276
>Email. JayLemke@UMich.edu
>Website. <http://www.umich.edu/~jaylemke%A0>www.umich.edu/~jaylemke
>_______________________________________________
>xmca mailing list
>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
mobile 0409 358 651
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Received on Wed Oct 17 18:55 PDT 2007
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