Re: [xmca] Water Into Wine

Re H20 example, David.
Almost certainly it was German gestalt influences, not Mills, that LSV was
relying on.
And they, of course, were diametrically opposed to Mills' form of
empiricism.

Mills does retain the idea of emergent qualities, in a way, in his idea of
"ethology"
but LSV seems a lot more continental than Anglo-American in his thinking.

Can't help with the quote from pedagogical psych. Andy's interpretation is
interesting.
mike

On 9/22/07, bella kotik <bella.kotik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you, David for stimulating me to reread these pages of "Educational
> Psychology" (in Russian, 1991). I really enjoyed LSV's discussion of the
> ways of transmitting of velues and moral principles from the positive
> perspective. Before he speaks about punishment/reward, he speaks about the
> general context of moral education, about harmfulness of fear of negative
> things because "Forbidden fruits are sweeter".
> And there is really some problem in translation.
> "...(E)very form of punishment is harmful, from the psychological point of
> view, and there is no place whatsoever for punishment in Soviet ( there
> is
> no such word in the original text instead there is "nastojashzaja", which
> means "Ideal" or "real") schools. The very idea of a child committing some
> misdeed always ponts to a defect in the educational process."
>
> And below is another thranslation of the next citation
>
> "The question arises as to what in our educational system can replace
> the positive aspects of the system of rewards and punishments as measures.
> If this system must be eliminated from our schools because of its harmful
> influence, then it is nevertheless undoubted that some aspects of its
> influence must be retained. In other words, in the matter of moral
> education we must make use of the nature of childish attractions, as a
> powerful motivational force for their conduct. These positive aspects
> must
> be preserved in such form as will reflect any action of a child back to
> him
> in the form of the impression made by his conduct on those around him.
> Nothing so influences us in our actions as the satisfactions they bring."
>
> This is bettter understood in the context of his discussion on the
> previous
> pages that the social conditions ( like rules in a game) are main factor
> in
> moral development rather then reward/punishment. Thus reflection means
> more
> of an attitude of social environment.
> And I did not find the word "Soviet" only "our" but I do not have an
> earlier
> edition, has to be checked because I think itis really important to know
> whether it is translation or later edditing. I tend to think that LSV used
> "our" because it reflects better his universality. But it has to be
> checked.
>
> Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>
>
>
> On 9/22/07, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > About a year ago, Mike was reading Chapter One of Thinking and Speech
> with
> > his class and they were discussing the example of the water molecule on
> p.
> > 45 (Collected Works Vol. 1), which I said was from Mill. Sure enough,
> here's
> > the original quote. But what a difference!
> >
> > "Men are not, when brought together, converted into another kind of
> > substance, with different properties; as hydrogen and oxygen are
> different
> > from water, or as hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and azote are different from
> > nerves, muscles, and tendons. Human beings in society have no properties
> but
> > those which are derived from, and may be resolved into, the laws of the
> > nature of individual man. In social phenomena the Composition of Causes
> is
> > the universal law." Chapter 7: 1
> >
> > You can find the WHOLE thing here:
> >
> > http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=5774540#
> >
> > You can see that Mill means exactly the opposite of what Vygotsky is
> > trying to say; Mill thinks that societies really are reducible to
> > individuals. It's all a bit like when LSV mangled Ribot and ended up
> with
> > something much truer. My (ex-)grad student Yongho likes to say that LSV
> was
> > peculiarly constructed so that his lips could not touch water without
> > turning it into wine.
> >
> > A propos, a vexing question. On p. 235 of Educational Psychology, LSV
> says
> >
> >
> > And then a page later, he says:
> >
> > "Though rewards and punishments have to be banished from Soviet schools
> > because of their harmful influence, it is nevertheless beyond question
> that
> > some portion of their effect will have to be retained, for otherwise the
> > nature of children's drives, which happen to be a powerful motivation of
> > their deeds, will have to be made use of in the realm of education (?).
> This
> > positive element (?) should be retained and manifest itself through the
> > reversion or return of every one of a child's actions back to him in the
> > form of the impressions of the effect it has on those around him."
> >
> > This makes no sense at all to me. Is it just a terrible translation? Can
> > anyone turn it back into wine?
> >
> >
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Seoul National University of Education
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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> > knows.
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>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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Received on Sat Sep 22 08:51 PDT 2007