Re: [xmca] 'Psychology of Art' and 'Literature and Revolution'

That is a very interesting hypothesis about the mandelshtam epigraph, Anton.

Notice the wildly different translation of chertog, all the way to Pluto's
place.
In the text that follows where he is less poetic and states straight out
that the thought is
completed in the word we have his "literal" interpretion..... I think.

I am less certain about the final fragment about bees. Here David's thoughts
re the
importance of Hellenistic tradition seem plausible, and I am still uncertain
about
translation.

Thanks to all who have helped with this detective work which makes us all
think a lot harder about the ideas involved and their implications for our
current state of thinking and action.
mike

On 6/7/07, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> --- Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ... the
> > sebo-croatian translation
> > appears very close to the epigraph in english
> > in lsv (but not the swallow in
> > Russian where blind
> > swallow=word
>
> > ... Minnick seems really off base-- or using
> > different text/poem)
>
> Vygotsky's "Ya slovo pozabyl, chto ya xotel
> skazat'/ I mysl' besplotnaya v chertog tenej
> vernjotsya", to me, looks like a quote from
> Mandel'shtam's 'Swallow', [possibly deliberately]
> misconstrued so that the first line is taken from
> the first (What had I wanted to say? I
> forgot./The blind swallow flies back to Pluto's
> palace) and the second one - from the penultimate
> verse of the original Mandel'shtam's poem (but I
> forgot what I want to say/ and the unbodied
> thought goes back to the palace of ghosts, -- for
> the full text see the post above; alternatively,
> for the text in both languages see here:
> http://max.mmlc.northwestern.edu/~mdenner/Demo/texts/swallow.html
> ).
>
> I believe, there is noting to blame Minick for;
> my guess, the quotation was for some reason (i.e.
> deliberately, - perhaps, because of the
> censorship problems, or maybe involuntarily, due
> to, say, the author's illness) corrupted already
> in the 1934 edition, by Vygotsky himself.
>
> Also, there is possibility that there was another
> version of the poem, as the editors to the
> Russian 1982 edition claim, although we don't
> really have much evidence yet in support of this
> interpretation.
>
>
> >
> > On 6/7/07, Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > <ana@zmajcenter.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > In the translation to Serbo-Croatian, in two
> > verses by Mandelstam (who is
> > > not mentioned by name)
> > > it is:
> > > "I forgot the word I wanted to say,
> > > and the *disembodied thought* will return
> > into the hall of shadows"
> > >
> > > Gumilev is also not named and remains just "a
> > poet"
> > > The translation of his verses is the
> > following:
> > > "And like bees in a deserted hive,
> > > dead words reek"
> > >
> > > And then the text continues with:
> > >
> > > "But, if thought is not embodied in word, it
> > remains a Stygian shadow, a
> > > "fog, a clang, a gawk", as another poet
> > says."
> > >
> > > Absolutely fascinating
> > > Ana
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Cole wrote:
> > >
> > > I am almost certain that we are dealing with
> > different version of the same
> > >
> > > poem, Natalia.
> > > Anton's site gives blind swallow. But the
> > later editions of M&R use the
> > > term
> > > "word" in
> > > place of blind swallow. I will forward the
> > Gumilev to you with a question
> > > in
> > > a min.
> > >
> > > can you post on xmca??
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On 6/7/07, Natalia Gajdamaschko
> > <nataliag@sfu.ca> <nataliag@sfu.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 10:53:07 -0700
> > mcole@weber.ucsd.edu wrote:
> > > > This is amazing, Anton.That poem is NOT in
> > Tristia in the "Complete
> > > Poetry"
> > > > volume. (Or I cannot find it there). But
> > what blew me away was the
> > > Russian
> > > > of the Swallow:
> > > >
> > > > ñ ÓÌÏ×Ï ÐÏÚÁÂÙÌß, ÞÔÏ Ñ ÈÏÔ*e*Ìß ÓËÁÚÁÔØ:
> > > > óÌ*e*ÐÁÑ ÌÁÓÔÏÞËÁ ×ß ÞÅÒÔÏÇß Ô*e*ÎÅÊ
> > ×ÅÒÎÅÔÓÑ
> > > >
> > > > Literally, isn't this:
> > > >
> > > > I forget the word I wanted to say,
> > > > And the blind swallow returns to the hall
> > of shadows.
> > > > (I am not sure of the word, chertog, and do
> > not have a Russian-English
> > > > dictionary to hand.
> > >
> > > Hi Mike,
> > > Chertog ---- is a palace , royal palace (or
> > hall) or zamok, dvorec. And
> > > yes, swallow is blind.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Natalia.
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
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> > > --
> > > **
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *Ana Marjanovic-Shane, Ph.D.* *151 W.
> > Tulpehocken St.* *Philadelphia**, PA
> > > 19144*** *(h) 215-843-2909*
> > *ana@zmajcenter.org* *
> > >
> >
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Received on Fri Jun 8 09:33 PDT 2007