Michael,
I think it is the moving back and forth to move forward, as well -- a
rising and falling of consciousness: yes, a very similar if not the
same idea.
The doing I am referring to is the making that an artist does, the
undergoing the appreciating by the audience, and the point is that
art that is all about doing is not really art. It may be technically
perfect, but to judge execution you must take into account the
opinion of the consumer. Dewey concludes that art must be 'loving'
-- it must care for the subject matter, not just the skill.
Stanislavsky also writes about this need of an actor to love his art
form. But I think you may be pointing to a more specific, and so
useful, connection between Dewey and Stanislavski.
Thank you for these insights!
Beth
On Jan 15, 2007, at 4:29 PM, Michael Glassman wrote:
> Beth,
>
> It is interesting that you bring up Dewey's reference to James'
> metaphor. My favorite metaphor from Dewey in talking about
> experience was from Experience and Nature where he talked about
> consciousness in terms of sailing on a boat across the sea,
> navigating the currents and moving from port to port - same idea I
> think - the idea that we are always moving forwards. Thinking back
> to Stanislavskii I wonder if he would have said that an actor can
> never settle on a character, you never are who you are, you always
> are what you are doing - motivations arise in the course of action,
> they generate action, and they carry us in to the next motivation.
> Is this vital experience, the doing and the undergoing that you
> speak of?
>
> Michael
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Beth Ferholt
> Sent: Mon 1/15/2007 7:22 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Cc: Patrick Anderson; Matt Brown
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Translating Vygotsky
>
>
>
> Elina,
> Are you saying that Dewey's experience is a part of 'perezhivanie'?
> I have been thinking of the two terms as closely related, but not in
> this way.
> As I have been try to understand 'perezhivanie' I have been thinking
> about Dewey's need to talk about art to talk about experience. He
> argues that the form of art unites 'doing' and 'undergoing', and that
> it is this same process that makes an experience 'an experience'.
> The artist embodies the attitude of the perceiver because the artist
> frames art for the perceiver, while for Stanislavsky 'perezhivanie'
> is imitating another's physical actions in order to experience their
> emotions.
> I have also been thinking about Dewey's interest in the rhythm of the
> process which makes an experience future-oriented. He refers to
> William James writing that the course of consciousness is like the
> flights and perchings of a bird. This reminds me of Vasiluk's
> 'perezhivanie', of his description of the stages which constitute the
> state of consciousness which allows 'entering into'.
> I am not sure if this can help us understand Vygotsky's use of
> 'perezhivanie' --
> Beth
>
> On Jan 15, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Lampert-Shepel, Elina wrote:
>
>> I am a Russian speaker, but it doesn't make the task of translation
>> of "perezhivanie" easier. I've been struggling for years to find a
>> meaningful English translation for Vygotskian very important
>> concept of "novoobrazovaniye", i.e. new formation in the psyche ,
>> newly formed higher psychological function that transformed the
>> previous psychological functions as well as their connections in
>> the consciousness of an acting subject...if anyone has a word for
>> it, I would appreciate...Maybe there is something challenging with
>> translation into English of Russian gerund type nouns that reflect
>> a process of transformation and do not point to the result or end.
>>
>> I guess, the challenge is to grasp conceptual meanings in
>> translation rather than to have a direct translation of the word.
>> As for "perezhivanie," as far as I understand, for Vygotsky it was
>> a unit of analysis for the study of person and environment. I do
>> not have an English translation, but in his Pedology of Adolescent,
>> Vygotsky names "perezhivanie" to be a unit that helps to avoid the
>> dualism of individual and environment. According to Bozhovich, for
>> a short period of time Vygotsky considered "perezhivanie" as the
>> unit of psychological development in the study of the social
>> situation of development. Moreover, I do not know whether it was
>> included in the English translation, but in the last three pages of
>> Pedology of Adolescent, he discusses "perezhivanie' as a dynamic
>> unit of consciousness that allows to explore the attributes of
>> consciousness in their connection, while he considered memory,
>> thinking, etc., to be the elements. "Perezhivanie " is often
>> discussed in relation to emotion, but it seems that for Vygotsky it
>> is much more than emotional experience. The word itself for a
>> Russian speaker, does not sound as a term, it can be easily used in
>> poetry. I do not mind "experience" in Dewean sense, but
>> "perezhivanie" is rather a reflection of the experience, the
>> internal both emotional and cognitive process in child's
>> consciousness that is a transformational for future development.
>>
>> That's my thinking so far...
>>
>> Elina
>>
>>
>> Elina Lampert-Shepel, Ed.D..
>> Assistant Professor
>> Graduate School of Education
>> Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
>> Mercy College
>> 66 West 35th Street
>> New York, NY 10001
>> (212) 615 3367
>>
>>
>> I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
>> it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what a
>> violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
>> fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only then it
>> is free to be a violin string.
>> Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In Serbo-Croatian there are also two expressions - somewhat
>> similar to
>> the Russian ones:
>> DOZHIVLYAY AND ISKUSTVO
>>
>> The Spanish/Portuguese "VIVENCIA" is very descriptive and beautiful!
>>
>> Ana
>>
>> Silvio Marquardt wrote:
>>> Dear friends,
>>>
>>> I think that Romanic languages could also help in handling the
>>> Russian concept:
>>>
>>> PEREZHIVANIE and OPIT (Russian)
>>> ERLEBNIS and ERFAHRUNG (German)
>>> VIVENCIA and EXPERIENCIA (Portuguese/Spanish)
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Silvio
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Leif Strandberg <leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com> wrote: Hi
>>>
>>> I am not at Russian speaker (or reader)
>>>
>>> Da i
>>>
>>> to me the word-meaning of perezhivania sounds and look very
>>> much Karl
>>> Marx. In "German Ideology" Marx writes over and over again how
>>>
>>> "What" and "how" are dialectically connected
>>>
>>> How we "really" are
>>>
>>> (I do not have the English version - only the Swedish - so I am
>>> sure I
>>> have translated Marx wrong here -
>>>
>>> da i
>>>
>>> I recommend German Ideology
>>>
>>> Leif
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2007-01-15 kl. 05.57 skrev Mike Cole:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Catherine, Sonja et al-
>>>>
>>>> Serendipitously I was reading LSV on the problem of the environment
>>>> which is
>>>> discussed in a chapter so entitled by van der veer and valsiner
>>>> in The Vygotsky Reader. They have a long footnote about
>>>> "perezhivanie"
>>>> on
>>>> p. 354. They use the term "emotional experience" as a translation
>>>> but say it is not adequate, contrasting it with interpretation
>>>> which
>>>> they
>>>> also say is not adequate, and say that it is very like the German
>>>> term
>>>> "erleben" as Volker surmised.
>>>>
>>>> Vasiliuk who wrote a book about perezhivanie that is translated
>>>> into
>>>> English
>>>> uses Doestoevsky for most of his examples. That should cue
>>>> you to the emotional ladeness of the term! And, apropos of other
>>>> local
>>>> discussions, to the fact that separating cognition and emotion is
>>>> not indigenously Russian, and is in fact antithetical to the
>>>> Russian
>>>> lexicon, the source of lots of intercultural non-understandings.
>>>>
>>>> You can get some feel for the prefix "pere" if you think of the
>>>> word
>>>> "pere-stroika." It indexes a process of getting through some
>>>> experience, or
>>>> reliving an experience, or re-building. I am sure that some of the
>>>> Russians
>>>> who lurk in this neighborhood can help us peredumat' ( think over
>>>> again)
>>>> about this very interesting and complex semantic field.
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On 1/14/07, Cathrene Connery wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sonja and everyone,
>>>>> Thanks for your translation of perezhivanie and the corresponding
>>>>> reference. After reading Vygotsky's writings on the topic, I have
>>>>> used the
>>>>> terminology "lived experience" and felt it insufficiently
>>>>> represented
>>>>> the
>>>>> transactive dimension of the concept. "Lived-through" accounts
>>>>> for
>>>>> human
>>>>> agency as well as the dialectic between the interpersonal &
>>>>> intrapersonal
>>>>> experience. Interestingly, I have met native Russian speakers who
>>>>> were not
>>>>> familiar with the term, although it might have been reflective of
>>>>> their own
>>>>> funds of knowledge.
>>>>> Have a nice day!
>>>>> Cathrene
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>>>>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>>>>> Central Washington University
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sonja Baumer 1/14/2007 2:30 PM >>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> hi cathrene and others,
>>>>> here is my response to your question about the translation of
>>>>> PEREZHIVANIE into english:
>>>>> in our previous work (see baumer et al, 2005) we translated
>>>>> perezhivanie as LIVED-THROUGH EXPERIENCE. the translation is
>>>>> necessarily descriptive as we could not find english word that
>>>>> would
>>>>> allow us to distinguish between PEREZHIVANIE and OPIT -- both of
>>>>> which
>>>>> are translated in english as EXPERIENCE.
>>>>> If u r a german speaker, a parallel distinction in german can
>>>>> be made
>>>>> between ERLEBNIS and ERFAHRUNG.
>>>>> i am not so fluent in german and russian, but the distinction
>>>>> seemed
>>>>> important to me, especially after reading stanislavski who also
>>>>> wrote
>>>>> about PEREZHIVANIE. let us know what your friends with more
>>>>> expertise
>>>>> in german and/or russian than myself had to say about that :-)
>>>>> sonja
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/12/07, Cathrene Connery wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Volker and everyone:
>>>>>> Thanks for taking the time to provide us with quotes regarding
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>> dialectical nature of the ZPD from the German translation you
>>>>> referred
>>>>> to. While I am not fluent in German, I have some friends that are
>>>>> and will
>>>>> call on their expertise to help translate the text you quoted.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The issue of translation can make a huge difference in our
>>>>>>
>>>>> transaction
>>>>> with and interpretation of Vygotsky's writings. I have struggled
>>>>> especially
>>>>> with the concept of perezhivanie / perezhivanija. Would anyone
>>>>> like
>>>>> to take
>>>>> a stab at this one?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gratefully,
>>>>>> Cathrene
>>>>>>
>>>>>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>>>>>> Central Washington University
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Volker.hippie" 1/11/2007 2:44 AM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Cathrine, in "Denken und Sprechen", translated by
>>>>>> Lompscher and
>>>>>> Rückriem, I felt in love with the term, on page 253: "Aus dieser
>>>>>> specifischen Zusammenarbeit zwischen Kind und Erwachsenem,
>>>>>> die ...
>>>>>>
>>>>> das
>>>>>
>>>>>> zentrale Moment im Bildungsproces darstellt, erklärt sich die
>>>>>> frühe
>>>>>> Reifung wissenschaftlicher Begriffe sowie der Umstand, dass ihr
>>>>>> Entwicklungsniveau als *Zone der nächsten Möglichkeiten (Zone for
>>>>>>
>>>>> next
>>>>>
>>>>>> possibilities) *hinsichtlich der Alltagsbegriffe wirkt, indem er
>>>>>>
>>>>> ihnen
>>>>>
>>>>>> als eine Art Propädeutik den Weg bahnt".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Page 32: Um nachzuahmen, muss ich die Möglichkeit haben, von dem,
>>>>>>
>>>>> was
>>>>>
>>>>>> ich kann, zu dem überzugehen, was ich nicht kann.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to give you some more quotes, but first I have to
>>>>>> ask,
>>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>>> are you able to read German? In a way it would not make
>>>>>> meaning to
>>>>>> translate fx the term "Bildungsproces", because as I know they do
>>>>>>
>>>>> not
>>>>>
>>>>>> have a word for it, in English. "Bildung" is another one, of this
>>>>>>
>>>>> funny
>>>>>
>>>>>> words, where Bildung means to get educated, not only as we
>>>>>>
>>>>> understand to
>>>>>
>>>>>> learning, but, too, as socializing to a democratic human
>>>>>> member of
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> world community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could find the same passages in the translation by Kozulin,
>>>>>>
>>>>> 1986, or
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sevé, 1997, but for me , Lompscher/Rückriem (with the
>>>>>> assistance of
>>>>>> Elena Kravtsova, Ghita Vygodskaya) have been able to translate
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>> words
>>>>>
>>>>>> by Vygotsky in a way, as they express in the start of the book,
>>>>>>
>>>>> closest
>>>>>
>>>>>> to the Russian original text. - I don't know if that is the
>>>>>>
>>>>> "really" the
>>>>>
>>>>>> case, ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cathrene Connery skrev:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Volker,
>>>>>>> Thanks for the interesting comments. Is it possible to select a
>>>>>>>
>>>>> quote
>>>>> / selection regarding the ZPD from the text you mentioned and
>>>>> post it
>>>>> for
>>>>> the list serve?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Feliz dia (Have a happy day),
>>>>>>> Cathrene
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
>>>>>>> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education
>>>>>>> Central Washington University
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Volker.hippie" 1/10/2007 8:59 AM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, and the ZPD reminds me of the term Gibson used to describe
>>>>>>> perception in a way, which made it possible to bridge between
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> objective and subjective perception, which he named
>>>>>>>
>>>>> "/affordances/".
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and I agree with Armando, the ZPD is something between the
>>>>>>>
>>>>> individual
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and the other(s) - and it gets facilitated by common joint
>>>>>>>
>>>>> activities.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that does not mean, that I can not take what I learn in a
>>>>>>> ZPD
>>>>>>>
>>>>> with
>>>>>
>>>>>>> me, to others places, other and maybe even more developmental
>>>>>>>
>>>>> ZPD's.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just a thought, - that the real fantastic principles in
>>>>>>>
>>>>> psychology are
>>>>>
>>>>>>> not either/or individual/collective principles, but both, at the
>>>>>>>
>>>>> same
>>>>>
>>>>>>> time, in a dialectical way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is therefore so wonderful to read Vygotsky - ´cause nobody
>>>>>>>
>>>>> has,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO, come up with a clearer description of the ZPD than made by
>>>>>>> Vygotsky in Denken und Sprechen, 2002, which is the
>>>>>>> translation by
>>>>>>> Lompscher et al. .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Armando Perez skrev:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eric: I dont like to look at ZPD as individual but as
>>>>>>>> a colective interperson al situation. This means that
>>>>>>>> ZPD do not belong to an individual but it is
>>>>>>>> constructed or co-constructed. I also work in
>>>>>>>> educational aplication of Vygotsky and I am tried to
>>>>>>>> unified the concept od ZPD and Social Situation odf
>>>>>>>> Development. What do you think about that
>>>>>>>> Armando
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com <http://mail.yahoo.com/>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>>
>>> Send instant messages to your online friends http:// <http:///>
>>> uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> //
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --
>> /Ana Marjanovic-Shane, Ph.D./
>> /151 W. Tulpehocken St./
>>
>> /Philadelphia//, PA 19144///
>>
>> /(h) 215-843-2909/
>>
>> /ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org>/
>>
>> /http://www.speakeasy.org/~anamshane
>> <http://www.speakeasy.org/%7Eanamshane>/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>>
>> <winmail.dat>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
> <winmail.dat>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Feb 01 2007 - 10:11:32 PST