Joe:
Since my job is in education I would like to speak to my preference for
Vygotsky over other theorists. Rather than looking at learning and
psychological functions he focuses on the overall development of a
child/adolescent/adult and looks to answer how development/learning are
intertwined. When he speaks about children facing a 'crisis' before they
learn something I believe he is speaking more truthfully about how children
develop/learn. This is oposed to the traditionally held belief that
children develop biologically and their brain is a computer that has
different programs loaded into it separate from the biological growth that
is happening. The zpd is certainly a focus of what I would like to
incorporate into my teaching but I do not view it as something that is
created but rather as something that is measured in each individual child
and then hopefully my lesson can capture the spirit of each individual
student's present 'crisis'.
what do you or others think?
eric
JAG
<joe.glick who-is-at gmail To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
.com> cc:
Sent by: Subject: Re: [xmca] Happy New Year, dots of red wine and thoughts on the line
xmca-bounces who-is-at web of development
er.ucsd.edu
01/04/2007 12:40
AM
Please respond
to "eXtended
Mind, Culture,
Activity"
David:
I am afraid that you are right about the job scene in the U.S.. I'm
not sure I agree about the scene in the Spanish Speaking world. I've
spent some time, for example at the Cathedra Vygotsky in Havana, and
then was asked to give a lecture to the entire psychology faculty.
After having lovely Vygotskian talks about, among other things,
education - and introducing Bakhtin as someone they should be looking
at I then faced the whole faculty and part of it was from the 50s -
good old behavioristic approaches. I thought I was back in graduate
school.
I was just at a conference in Brazil (not quite Spanish speaking - but
close) and there you are perfectly right - all the talks and all the
books were about Vygotsky, or Vygotsky and Freud, Vygotsky and Marx
and other combinations. But then again this was a conference devoted
to that approach.
I came away somewhat frustrated - since language divides us so much -
and so too does the committment of governments to different goals -
which in turn relates to "where the money is" and that often relates
to what research is about. The possibility of our conference depended
on the existence of a Socialist government in one of the suburbs of
Sao Paulo.
I am at an American University where Vygotsky is understood as an
essential part of psychology. One of my colleagues is editing an
exchange of letters between Jerome Bruner and A.R. Luria - and this is
considered a valuable activity - even as we are under pressure to get
grants. So there are some places where Vygotsky exists within
psychology.
The relation between Vygotsky and education I have always found to be
puzzling - not because, as Mike rightly points out, Vygotsky was no
stranger to educational issues. What I find puzzling is a sort of
chicken and egg problem. Is Vygotsky so important to education because
of the stress on one particular version of the ZPD concept - which was
not, I still believe, at the center of his work. Vygotsky now exists
by other names in other contexts - even as Luria is seen as a
neuropsychologist more than a member of the Troika.
I'm rambling too long but to shorten the whole thing - the job market
in the U.S, is, in part driven by publication (where are the venues
for this sort of publication?) by grants (what does the government
think is important), by fads of professional associations (for example
the American Psychological Association declared the 1990s as the
"Decade of the Brain.")
But there is a lively discourse - and still many publications about
Vygotsky. And many other publications that could have been by Vygotsky
had he not died in 1934 before so much had changed the world. To some
extent, the "shrine" of Vygotsky exists in his name - maybe more in
the Spanish Speaking world and maybe more in Education everywhere, but
the spirit behind the shrine - what Vygotsky might have been and
thought about had he lived, still exists in many distributed and maybe
even some hidden forms.
If we can shift focus to the present I think that there are more jobs
for young scholars in the Vygotskian tradition than any of us think.
They just have a lot of different names attached to them.
I, for one, think that it is a good thing that Vygotsky's approach
lives on in design, ergonomics, analysis of workplaces,
communications. We live in a world of things and in worlds of
communicative communities moreso than the worlds of the professor's
office. The quandary facing you is that you were trained as an
academic (that seems to be the business of universities) but the
opportunities within the academic world are defined by somewhat alien
ideologies. That might lead you to question the academic world more
than the relation of Vygotsky to it.
Joe
On 1/3/07, David Preiss <davidpreiss@uc.cl> wrote:
> Joe,
> But it is not psychology (at least mainstream psychology) where
> Vygotsky exerts influence today, but out of psychology (education,
> ergonomics, communication and so on). If a young scholar wants a
> position in the USA and wants to do research in Vygotskian psychology
> there is almost no place to look at there within psychology
> departments (at least he comes up with a neuroscientific base for the
> ZPD). I guess it was never different, though. It is curious that in
> the spanish speaking world is quite the contrary: mainstream american
> psychology is marginal and vygotskian psychology is at the core of
> many departments and journals, which creates for us a different set
> of complexities.
> David
>
> On Jan 3, 2007, at 5:26 PM, JAG wrote:
>
> > It drives me crazy that I never get my own messages except as part of
> > someone's response to them. This is, in part, what I mean by
> > dialogicality.
> >
> > I know that Mind in Society didn't create - it rather unleashed an
> > orgy of ZPD (almost as learning theory) studies - something we have
> > discussed conversationally as well while gazing at wonder at some past
> > SRCD programs.
> >
> > My quibble is not with Vygotsky, but with the various forms of his
> > appropriation.
> >
> > I think that you said it quite nicely (although I'm not sure it was
> > you since your name was misspelled as Michael Coles) on the cover of
> > the Wertsch (1985 book)
> >
> > "This lucid account of Vygotsky's ideas makes clear why he is exerting
> > such a great influence on contemporary psychology and education.
> > Especially valuable is Wertsch's explanation of the links that existed
> > between the social and humane sciences and the work of Bakhtin, the
> > Formalists, the Prague School and many others. Reading the book is a
> > terrific educational experience."
> >
> > PS. I am that red dot on the map where the WTC used to be, and part of
> > a larger cluster of red dots where The United States, as we had
> > imagined it, used to be.
> >
> > On 1/3/07, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I think the issue of "lines of development" Anne Nelley, is very
> >> important.
> >> It speaks directly to Yrjo's emphasis on the horizontal and vertical
> >> "directions"
> >> of development. After all, in his view learning and development
> >> make contact
> >> at the nexus of the two and it can be all over the map! Absent
> >> from ANY of
> >> this
> >> discussion is evidence of cultural effects OF AND ON phylogeny,
> >> because the
> >> motives of development are of phylotenetic, as well as
> >> ontogenetic and
> >> cultural
> >> historical origin.
> >>
> >> Joe. In that same book fr, 1978 there was also Vygotsky's article
> >> on play!
> >> I think you are absolutely right about the educationalist bias,
> >> but Vygotsky
> >> was, you
> >> will excuse the expression, a tad educationalist biased himself, in
> >> practice. Part of the
> >> attractiveness of Yrjo's ideas and those of others like yourself
> >> who have
> >> worked in the
> >> workplace (where that workspace was not a faculty member's
> >> office!) is that
> >> it makes
> >> clear the lifespan potential of the theory. It is not by accident
> >> that so
> >> many members of
> >> xmca are interested in play, so that domain is now a part of the
> >> discourse
> >> too.
> >>
> >> Gotta give ourselves time to develop, so to speak.
> >> mike
> >>
> >> \
> >> On 1/3/07, JAG <joe.glick@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Happy New Year to all:
> >> >
> >> > I've begun to think about the ZPD as having been too much
> >> defined in
> >> > educational terms - as "movement" from here to there
> >> (intellectually).
> >> > I think that the essential feature of the ZPD could/should be the
> >> > "dialogicality" of it. From a dialogical perspective it is not one
> >> > person moving another to a place where they were not, but rather an
> >> > engagement between two people - both of whom must be affected by
> >> that
> >> > engagement. I think that the original Doise and Mugny studies
> >> pointed
> >> > in that direction.
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps I am speaking too much from a U,S. perspective but the way
> >> > that Vygotsky was "reintroduced" in 1978 in "Mind in Society"
> >> shifted
> >> > a great deal of focus on to ZPD as education. It was only later, in
> >> > 1985 when Wertsch began to introduce the dialogical notion of
> >> the ZPD
> >> > (seconded, interestingly in the introduction to "Vygotsky: The
> >> Social
> >> > Formation of Mind" by Zinchenko and Davydov) who seemed to
> >> resisting
> >> > the shift of the interpretation of Vygotsky in the direction of
> >> > Activity Theory - with not enough Bakhtin - too much object related
> >> > action and not enough consciousness. Of course, that was 1985 when
> >> > consciousness could more comfortably take its place along with
> >> > activity.
> >> >
> >> > >From a dialogical view of the ZPD the question of "who benefits"
> >> > shifts to other questions such as "What are the conditions of
> >> > participation, either focal or peripheral?" "What does it mean
> >> to have
> >> > a dialogic encounter - especially when the institutional
> >> framework is
> >> > (too often) seen as education of the unknowing by those who know
> >> - or
> >> > think they do." In sum the issue might be framed as "how do you
> >> create
> >> > a dialogical space in places where everything is working against
> >> it."
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps it requires both the wonderful wine and some of that
> >> wonderful
> >> > cheese.
> >> >
> >> > Joe Glick
> >> >
> >> > On 1/3/07, Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont
> >> > <Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote:
> >> > > Dear All,
> >> > > I am a member of the (numerous!) red dots along the Alpine
> >> lakes and
> >> > > Rhein Walley (I suppose, but I am not sure because this map is
> >> not as
> >> > > precise as the satellite maps. If it were you might discover
> >> that the
> >> > > red color is due to the good red wine of our local vinyards in
> >> the area,
> >> > > I suppose).
> >> > > I enjoy the discussions but very seldom manage to pop in as
> >> they go very
> >> > > fast and my administrative duties seem to slow me down
> >> terribly. I would
> >> > > enjoy coming back on the effects of peer interactions and the
> >> learning
> >> > > that can occur also with less advanced peers, as already
> >> described in
> >> > > the late '70. It raises a lot of questions about the ZPD: why
> >> would the
> >> > > development follow a predictable line? For psychological
> >> (Piaget would
> >> > > say for logical) reasons? Or for cultural reasons? If the
> >> direction of
> >> > > the line of development is largely given culturally then the
> >> credibility
> >> > > of peers in different cultural contexts might be quite
> >> different . In
> >> > > could be the social milieu at large, but also the micro
> >> context created
> >> > > by gender when the interacting peers are same sex or note (as
> >> Charis
> >> > > Psaltis's beautiful dissertation in Cambridge has shown).
> >> > > Is development following a line...is another questions. What
> >> is/are the
> >> > > relevant dimension(s) on which we project it to see line(s)?
> >> How does
> >> > > the adult who reaches in the ZPD of the subject know that he
> >> is bringing
> >> > > the subject "next step" (on the line)?
> >> > >
> >> > > I'd like to hear you Aleksandar tell us more on how to map human
> >> > > cultural tools. Including those tools can make life livable in
> >> difficult
> >> > > situations. And what do they have to do with devlopment.
> >> > > Best greetings,
> >> > > Anne-Nelly
> >> > >
> >> > > Prof. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont
> >> > > Institut Psychologie et Education
> >> > > Faculté des Lettres et Sciences humaines
> >> > > Université de Neuchâtel
> >> > > Espace L. Agassiz 1 CH 2000 Neuchâtel (Switzerland)
> >> > > tel.:+41 32 718 18 56 fax: +41 32 718 18 51
> >> > > email: anne-nelly.perret-clermont@unine.ch
> >> > > http://www.unine.ch/psy
> >> > > http://members.unine.ch/anne-nelly.perret-clermont/
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Aleksandar Baucal wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Dear all,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Happy New Year (for us who belong to ? (sub)world it is
> >> 2007, what
> >> > > > year is for other existing (sub)worlds?).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > After some drinks I have a crazy idea. If it was possible to
> >> map human
> >> > > > genom with 3 bil. units, why it iwould not be possible to
> >> map human
> >> > > > cultural tools ...ehh...could you imagine trill of such
> >> project :)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Anyway, I wish you happy and cheerful New Dialogical Year
> >> whatever
> >> > > > number it is on your calendar :)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Warmest greeting from small red dot from Belgrade
> >> > > > Aleksandar Baucal
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Cathrene Connery wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >> Greetings colleagues,
> >> > > >> Just a quick hello from Central Washington University in
> >> Ellensburg,
> >> > > >> Washington. I'm not sure if I'm a dot on the map yet, but
> >> thought
> >> > I'd
> >> > > >> introduce myself. Thanks to Ana, I started receiving xmca e-
> >> mails
> >> > about
> >> > > >> a month ago. It has been refreshing to read everyone's
> >> dialouge. A
> >> > > >> powerhouse of energy collectively represents the members of
> >> this
> >> > > >> listserve!
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Just a little about myself......I fell in love with
> >> Vygotsky in '89
> >> > when
> >> > > >> reading Thought and Language at Illinois while pursuing my
> >> first
> >> > > >> Master's degree. This past May, I graduated from the
> >> University of
> >> > New
> >> > > >> Mexico with a doctorate in Language, Literacy, and
> >> Sociocultural
> >> > Studies
> >> > > >> focusing on Bilingual / TESL Education. It was an honor to
> >> have Vera
> >> > > >> John-Steiner chair my committee. Emergent biliteracy,
> >> multi-modal
> >> > > >> meaningmaking, and teacher education reform on behalf of
> >> culturally
> >> > and
> >> > > >> linguistically diverse children remain my great interests.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> My best wishes to you and your families for the upcoming
> >> year. May
> >> > you
> >> > > >> experience peace, joy, and good health.
> >> > > >> Todo lo mejor (All the best),
> >> > > >> Cathrene
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
> >> > > >> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education Central
> >> Washington
> >> > > >> University
> >> > > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > > >> xmca mailing list
> >> > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > xmca mailing list
> >> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > xmca mailing list
> >> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > xmca mailing list
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
> David Preiss, Ph.D.
> Profesor Auxiliar / Assistant Professor
>
> Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile
> Escuela de Psicología
> Av Vicuña Mackenna 4860
> Macul, Santiago
> Chile
>
> Fono: 3544605
> Fax: 3544844
> e-mail: davidpreiss@uc.cl
> web personal: http://web.mac.com/ddpreiss/
> web institucional: http://www.uc.cl/psicologia
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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