Hi Mike,
I have David's text and attach it.
I appreciate David's book as a great contribution in worldwide promotion of
Il'enkov's philosophy, but frankly to say I find it enough ambiguous not to
say muddling.
Anyway reading this book one has to realize that it presents an
interpretation of Il'enkov's (as well as Lenin's) philosophy from point of
view which lies outside of materialism and dialectic.
It's pity that it was not translated into Russian so that most of Russian
philosophers can't read and discuss it.
Sasha
-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Mike Cole
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:01 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] question
Chapter 4 of David Bakhurst's book on Ilyenkov has a very illuminating
discussion
of these issues because he directly and seriously addresses Lenin whose
ideas
he characterizes as ambiguous. As a result of this ambiguity, writes DR, who
quite
different strands of Marxist interpretation grew up and that it was the
anti-positivist
side of the resulting ambiguity that Ileynkov adopted. I do not know if you
have this
text, Sasha.
I cannot type it all in by hand and LCHC is now pretty much closed until New
Years,
but will try to find time to relay a few key passages. If someone with the
book and
a scanner can help, that would be great.
mike
On 12/20/06, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
>
> Sasha,
>
> I agree entirely that an interpretation of Marx will always be from one or
> another stance. It seems to me that there are large differences between
> Marx
> scholarship in the west and that in Russia. When you say, for example,
> that
> there is there is only one school of Marxist philosophy in Russia that
> strikes me as both a strength and a weakness. My knowledge of Marx is
> without a doubt far inferior to yours, but I hope that it has been
> richened
> by exploring a little how Marx was read by people like Lefebvre, Sartre,
> Merleau-Ponty, and read back into Hegel by Kojeve, Hyppolite, Lukacs, and
> others. I'm not trying to sound erudite; my point is that Marx's texts are
> ambiguous, plurivocal, and any attempt to determine the real Marx, or
> decide
> once and for all how Marx related to Hegel, for example, is an endless
> task.
> Marx's writings have been called "a breathtakingly luxuriant but tangled
> forest."
>
> For example, the interpretation that Marx had already 'inverted' Hegel has
> been much contested. To think that there is merely a rational kernel to
> Hegel is a matter of debate, to say the least. To call the 1844
> manuscripts
> preliminary in anything other than a literal sense is to repeat a claim
> that
> has been much challenged.
>
> But let me defend myself a little: Engels used the term "historical
> materialism," while Marx did not (though I think Kautsky coined it). Lenin
> wrote of "dialectical materialism" in Materialism and Empiricocriticism.
> Stalin is not worth defending, I agree. To paint HM as true and DM as
> false
> does not get me very far in trying to understand what Vygotsky was doing
> with these terms, with the texts they came from, and thus to see what can
> be
> teased out of the tangled forest of Vygotsky's own writings.
>
> For example, my question to Joao was based what seems to me evident
> (though
> I'm willing to be corrected): that Vygotsky himself drew a distinction
> between HM and DM, and on my reading he judges them both positively.
>
> Yes, Vygotsky considered himself to be a Marxist. But what that meant to
> him
> then, and what it means to us now, are not self-evident matters. Reading
> Vygotsky's texts here in the US in one way I am at a disadvantage because
> the culture and context are so different from his. But from another point
> of
> view this makes it possible to try to liberate a potential from his
> writing
> that might not otherwise be accessible. I am not a Marxist (in any direct
> sense) but I do want to develop his ideas. If you are correct that "if we
> want develop Vygotsky¹s ideas
> > and if we appreciate his conscious position we can do it only basing on
> > Marxist approach"
> then scholarship on Vygotsky in the west is in deep trouble!
>
> One last thing- you also suggest that:
> prevailing attitude towards LSV as to ideal example of Marxist
> > dialectical logic
>
> While I would say that this is actually a very rare attitude to Vygotsky
> in
> this country.
>
> Martin
>
> p.s. can I add that I attended your presentation at ISCAR in Sevilla and
> was
> very impressed by your intellectual project. It is a pleasure to be
> discussing these matters with you!
>
>
> On 12/20/06 9:47 PM, "Alexander Surmava" <monada@netvox.ru> wrote:
>
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> >
> >
> > I think that the interpretation of Marxist philosophy (dialectic) has to
> be
> > based on some definite cultural = scientific = philosophical tradition
> or
> > school of thought. Thus my approach is entirely based on Il¹enkov¹s
> school
> > of dialectic. This approache I share with all of his disciples among
> which I
> > have to mention Felix Mikhailov, Lev Naumenko, Vasiliy Davidov, Alexey
> > Novokhatko, Alexander Simakin, Sergey Mareev and some other philosophers
> and
> > psychologists.
> >
> > According to this approach the basics of Marxist philosophy was
> elaborated
> > by Karl Marx and Fred Engels in the course of investigation of political
> > economy of capitalist society in ³Das Kapital² and in a few preliminary
> > works like ³Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844², ³The German
> > Ideology² and ³Theses on Feuerbach². Engels only aired his and Marx¹
> > collective opinion in his latest works like ³Anti-Dühring². We (I mean
> all
> > mentioned above alive or dead persons) have never heard that it was
> Engels
> > who ³extracted the rational kernel' from Hegel to invent it and DM²
> because
> > from one side the work of extraction of rational, materialist Kernel
> from
> > Hegel was done by both founders of materialist dialectic in 1844 and
> > developed in ³Das Kapital² and from the other side because the separate
> DM
> > is entirely false positivist misinterpretation of Marxist philosophy and
> > that Engels quite innocent in it.
> >
> > Even less we can accuse Lenin of inventing or elaborating of abstract DM
> > because it was Lenin who was the utmost enemy of all forms of
> positivism.
> >
> > On the contrary the Stalinist ideology was in fact the queer mixture of
> > primitive positivist ³DM² and irrational ideological ³HM².
> >
> > I want to repeat that this point of view is not my own peculiarity but
> > something banal for all Russian Marxists. (There is only one Marxist
> > philosophical school in Russia founded by Il¹enkov, so when I mention
> > ³Russian Marxists² I mean Il¹enkov¹s disciples.)
> >
> > Surely all this can be argued in detail but first of all we have to fix
> the
> > difference in our approaches, if such differences really exist.
> >
> > As for question of Joao about LSV¹s approach to this problem it is
> difficult
> > (and frankly to say rather senseless) to try to give some definite
> answer to
> > it because the ³problem² of establishing a ³difference between dialectic
> > materialism and historical materialism² is not a substantial theoretic
> but
> > entirely ideological question (in old Marxist meaning of the term
> ³ideology²
> > as a false form of consciousness). I can only repeat that basing on
> > developed Marxist dialectical approach so called DM and HM are one and
> the
> > same thing.
> >
> > Surely Vygotsky consider himself as a Marxist, he wanted to be a Marxist
> and
> > pretty much he was a Marxist. Moreover if we want develop Vygotsky¹s
> ideas
> > and if we appreciate his conscious position we can do it only basing on
> > Marxist approach.
> >
> > But we have sober estimate that the real logic of his investigations not
> > always remain Marxist. Thus for example Vygotsky¹s understanding of
> language
> > is considerably positivist. (This assertion can be easily demonstrated.)
> So
> > the prevailing attitude towards LSV as to ideal example of Marxist
> > dialectical logic is to put it mildly inadequate. Vygotsky wanted to
> build a
> > Marxist psychology and he did much more than anybody else to realize his
> > wish, but he had too little time to do it. Moreover he meets the other
> big
> > obstacle not enunciating of Marxist dialectic. The dialectical method
> of
> > Marx was realized by him in his main work ³Das Kapital², but neither
> Marx,
> > nor Engels has left us ³Logic² from capital letter. So Vygotsky had in
> the
> > same time investigate the nature of human consciousness and extract
> > dialectical methodology from ³Das Kapital². In fact the task was too
> titanic
> > for one even genius man. In this situation it is little wonder that he
> > failed in realizing both tasks (elaborating dialectical methodology and
> > developing a dialectical psychology) but it deserves admiration that in
> > spite of all difficulties LSV left us a great number of brilliant
> insights.
> >
> > The real perspective of developing of dialectical psychology was opened
> only
> > in the middle of the last century by works of a group of researchers
> like
> > Evald Il¹enkov, Alexander Mescheriakov, Alexey Leont¹ev and Nikolay
> > Bernstein.
> >
> > So the sooner we will left the uncritical apologetical attitude
> regarding
> > Vygotsky, the better chance we acquire to continue his lifework.
> >
> > Sasha
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On
> > Behalf Of Martin Packer
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:59 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] question
> >
> >
> >
> > Joao,
> >
> >
> >
> > Your project sounds interesting. I think you're pointing to something of
> a
> >
> > contradiction that I feel is in the Crisis, and perhaps elsewhere. On
> the
> >
> > one hand V does speak of the problem of using either historical
> materialism
> >
> > or dialectical materialism for his "general psychology," a truly Marxist
> >
> > psychology. The former was appropriate for Marx's sociology, a study of
> >
> > society, but he's doing something different. The latter is too abstract.
> On
> >
> > the other hand, the history that he tells of the discipline of
> psychology is
> >
> > one in which there is an objective logic, operating behind the backs of
> >
> > individual psychologists ("like a coiled string"), the laws of this
> logic
> >
> > can be grasped through "scientific analysis," there are underlying
> inherent
> >
> > contradictions, a revolutionary moment (the "crisis") has arrived as a
> >
> > result of the pressure of practical concerns, and a future can be
> envisioned
> >
> > where, in the form of the new general psychology, qualitatively
> different
> >
> > from what has come before, time has ended. In short, this history has a
> form
> >
> > that sounds (to the best of my limited knowledge) very much like that
> >
> > dialectical materialism.
> >
> >
> >
> > What do you think? (Sorry not to be able to write in Portugese)
> >
> >
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > On 12/19/06 11:07 AM, "Joao Martins" <jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> Martins and others... the title of my project is " The psychology of
> >
> >> Vygotsky: mapping concepts, tracing courses ". He has as objective maps
> > the
> >
> >> concepts, the units of analysis used by Vygotsky to consolidate your
> >
> >> proposals for the psychology.
> >
> >> I will be analyzing your books: Psychology of the Art and Pedagogic
> >
> >> Psychology and the texts that appeared in your Chosen Works.
> >
> >> In a first moment we can notice that Vyg. uses of the dialetic
> materialism
> >
> >> to make the analyses about the superior psychological functions, or
> even
> > to
> >
> >> analyze the psychology of your time - in the text Crisis of the
> Psychology
> >
> >> that is clear.
> >
> >> But he speaks that the problem is to use the historical materialism to
> > make
> >
> >> such analyses. I think that he sees in the historical materialism a
> form
> > of
> >
> >> approaching the psychological phenomena, approaching of a certain
> > sociology
> >
> >> of the human relationships...
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Do you understand?
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Joao Martins
> >
> >> ____________________
> >
> >> Joáo Batista Martins
> >
> >> R. Pref. Hugo Cabral, 1062 - apto. 142
> >
> >> Londrina - PR - CEP 86020-111
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Home page http//www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/5389
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >> From: "Martin Packer" <packer@duq.edu>
> >
> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 12:21 PM
> >
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] question
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Joao,
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Would you like to tell us more about your project?
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Martin
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >> On 12/18/06 11:38 AM, "Joao Martins" <jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >
> >>> Dear friends, I am making a project on vygotsky and I would like to
> know
> >
> >> if
> >
> >>> Vygotsky establish a difference between dialetic materialism and
> >
> >> historical
> >
> >>> materialism?
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Joao Martins
> >
> >>> ____________________
> >
> >>> Joáo Batista Martins
> >
> >>> R. Pref. Hugo Cabral, 1062 - apto. 142
> >
> >>> Londrina - PR - CEP 86020-111
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >
> >> xmca mailing list
> >
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >>
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >
> >> xmca mailing list
> >
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > xmca mailing list
> >
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> >
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> >
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>
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