David,
I don't believe that music masters would say that they teach by repeated practice. The practice develops the skill but the key would be to stimulate the ability to create, improvise, and this doesn't come from practice, practice just extends the range over which the creativity can be expressed. I suppose a lot of questions about zopeds might be provided with ample material for answers through the study of how great musicians were trained. My son teaches music in San Diego area high schools and we have often discussed how he approaches working with beginning musicians. I'll have to get him to write me something about it.
Paul
David Preiss <davidpreiss@uc.cl> wrote:
This is a great discussion. I wonder, though, what makes a sensei
different from a musical master that teaches an instrument through
repeated practice. Is just repeated practiced modeled by a mentor
sufficient to account for the phenomenon?
On Dec 21, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Paul Dillon wrote:
> Eric,
>
> I don't think the idea of a "cultural systems" has a "theoretical
> construct" upon which all anthropologists agree (or any others who
> use the concept of culture) so I think the zpd and culture are
> about at the same level in this sense. I say this as a practicing
> anthropologist (ie, one actively involved the study of "culture",
> in my case Andean culture) which is also the field in which I have
> my advanced degrees.
>
> Like the zpd , "culture" can be looked at from a lot of
> perspectives. There are different schools of thought about it,
> there is no paradigm (in the Kuhnian sense) for "culture" or for
> "cultural systems" so the problem is just moved back one level when
> you use that concept to talk about the limitations of another one.
>
> Nevertheless, both culture and zoped are extremely useful
> concepts for a variety of practical and theoretical applications.
> Maybe the desire to have scientific concepts that resemble those of
> the natural sciences is just starting of on the wrong foot when
> dealing with the socio-cultural (and by implication psychological)
> level.
>
> Paul
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>
> Paul:
> As a metaphor Vygotsky's ZPD explains his thinking very well, as a
>
>
> theoretical construct it does not have the capacity to be analyzed
> in a
>
>
> manner that separates an individual's systems from the cultural
> systems
>
>
> which are elucidating and canalizing an individual's developments,
>
>
> subsequently Valsiner has dissected Vygotsky's ZPD into three zones
> that
>
>
> not only explain human development more precisely but provide
>
>
> methodological tools that allow researchers to discuss developmental
>
>
> systems with more specific lucidity.
>
>
> Valsiner separated Vygotsky's ZPD into three different zones that he
>
>
> labeled the Zone of Free Movement (ZFM), the Zone of Promoted
> Action (ZPA)
>
>
> and a much more specific Zone of Proximal Development (ZPD). When I
>
>
> introduced his "Process structure of semiotic mediation" paper a
> few months
>
>
> back it did not meet with much support. I do not want to spend much
> time
>
>
> discussing his more specific zone approach because that as well may
> not be
>
>
> what people are interested in. If people are it is available in his
> book,
>
>
> "Culture and the development of children's actions."
>
>
>
>
>
> eric
>
>
>
>
>
> Paul Dillon
>
>
> yahoo.com> cc:
> Sent by: Subject: Re: [xmca] perhaps. . . sensei
> xmca-bounces who-is-at web
> er.ucsd.edu
>
>
> 12/21/2006 10:33
> AM
> Please respond
> to "eXtended
> Mind, Culture,
> Activity"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Eric,
>
> I wasn't denying that there are "logical matrices" within the
> individual
> practices, only that the search for one overarching definition that
> would
> encompass all of the practices might be trying to make a road that
> really
> goes nowhere. But even within hospitals and other institutions
> there are
> lots of different areas of practice ranging from the technical (eg
> surgery)
> to the political (learning how, as a nurse, you need to relate to
> doctors
> or administrators)
>
> Paul
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>
> Paul Dillon wrote:
>
> "Sensei, nothing more nor less than someone farther down the road,
> what's
> the practice and what needs does it relate to? Looking for some
> absolute
> concept of zoped seems pointless, trying to define it so that one
> could
> identify it in any context on the basis of a Carnapian logical matrix,
> impossible. The key I think is to look at the practice, identify
> its road
> and see how far people are along that road and how they make that road
> relevant to someone who might not even know the road is there.
> Expanding
> is moving beyond the known roads into what was previously unknown."
>
> I beleive on the ontogenetic level (learning/development) this is
> extremely
> helpful, but on the phylogenetic level(personality/socialization)it
> misses
> much of the cultural-historical emphasis. Engstrom's learning by
> expanding
> emphasises broad cultural entities (hospitals and other work
> places). In
> these settings there are logical matrixes/structures.
>
> what do you think?
> eric
>
>
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David Preiss, Ph.D.
Profesor Auxiliar / Assistant Professor
Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile
Escuela de Psicología
Av Vicuña Mackenna 4860
Macul, Santiago
Chile
Fono: 3544605
Fax: 3544844
e-mail: davidpreiss@uc.cl
web personal: http://web.mac.com/ddpreiss/
web institucional: http://www.uc.cl/psicologia
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