I think Deb rise an interesting question. In my understanding it depends
very much on our interpretation what is meaning of the phrase
"scientific concept". For example, if it is really linked just with
concepts taken from sciences it would not be applicable for other forms
of cultural activity like art. However, I think that Vygotsky stress
scientific background because he dealt with cognitive development within
educational setting in the chapter of the T&L book. Concepts from
different sciences that are introduced withing teaching/learning process
are different from concepts one build through personal experience
because they exist/build hierarchical system with other concepts. What
is necessary part of the system of concepts are relations withing
concepts and intellectual/thinking operations (in the case of science
these are logical operations) which are inbuilt in the system. When
child appropriate the system of concepts and when the system of concepts
mediate her/his thinking it becomes logically structured. Now, if we
take this literally it would mean that artistic concepts can play
similar role just if they are structured in the hierarchical system of
logically defined concepts what might be true, but only in the case of
science of art. However, in my interpretation Vygotsky example with
scientific concepts can be generalized in the following way. Each
community built through history certain systems of concepts (not
necessary with clear logical definitions) linked with certain form of
cultural activity. These system is collectively standardized and
structured (or cultivated ). Furthermore, in this network/system of
concepts are inbuilt different patterns of thinking/emotional/moral
activities. For example, artist who is working on the production of
artistic piece. her/his thinking, feelings, expressions etc. are
mediated with some network of concepts/ideas/images which are produced
by some community/culture. In that respect her/his mental processes are
structured/guided/organized/framed by the system although this system is
not consisted of scientific concepts. I think that the key idea of
Vygotsky's example with scientific concepts is not that these concepts
are taken from science, but that one appropriate certain set of
ideas/concepts/images/feelings which are structured by certain
culture/community that is referent for the person. Perhaps Vygotsky
would cry out if he would hear my interpretation :)
yours
sasha
ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> Hello Deb:
>
> Thank you for your response to my question.
>
> When I use "scientific concept" I am using Vygotsky's term. Kozulin
> describes the idea well in his intro to "Thought and Language" Pg xxxiii,
> "Scientific concepts originate in the highly structured and specialized
> activity of classroom instruction and impose on a child a logically defined
> concept. . ." I believe that there can be a zoped whenever any
> culturally-historically logically constructed concept is the focus of a
> culturally based activity that has an attainable goal as the outcome. Play
> can be a culturally based activity with an attainable goal.
>
> maybe?
> eric
>
>
>
> "deborah
> downing-wilson" To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> <ddowningw who-is-at gmail cc:
> .com> Subject: Re: [xmca] perhaps. . .
> Sent by:
> xmca-bounces who-is-at web
> er.ucsd.edu
>
>
> 12/20/2006 12:44
> PM
> Please respond
> to "eXtended
> Mind, Culture,
> Activity"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Okay, now I'm really confused. How do we define "scientific concepts"?
> Can
> there be no zoped when artistic concepts, painting for example, are in
> play?
>
> deb
>
>
> On 12/20/06, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
>
>> . . .this may be a better definition of a zoped:
>>
>> a culturally based activity that provides an opportunity for individuals
>> to
>> apply scientific concepts to everyday experiences via the assistance of
>> somebody more experienced with the scientific concepts related to the
>> goals
>> of the culturally based activity.
>>
>> Unfortunately I implied in the prior post there was assistance of someone
>> with experience. I would also like to emphasize that the question posed
>> by
>> the teacher in the room would be a set up to allow the students to ask
>> questions of the speaker, fulfilling the imitation requirement that
>> Vygotsky emphasizes in his chapter, "The development of scientific
>> concepts
>> in childhood" of his "Thought and Language" tome. Page 188 of the 1999
>> Kozulin translated edition, "In the child's development. . .imitation and
>> instruction play a major role. . .what the child can do in cooperation
>> today he can do alone tomorrow." I believe the example I provided
>> yesterday would be what Vygotsky is referring to as cooperation.
>>
>> eric
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Deborah Downing-Wilson
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>
>
>
>
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