Eric, Andy, David, and others,
I sense this thread is trying to go to bed--as am I, but thus far,
unsuccessfully.
I think there are two distinct senses in which we can understand moral
judgments as culturally located. The first is at the level of moral
principles. For instance, we've wondered if the situation of the battered
wife is so egregious that it must count for us as an instance of
victimization, notwithstanding that the woman may hold herself responsible
for the violence afflicting her. Mostly, our conversation has been at this
level. For instance, it's at this level that I've declared myself a moral
relativist, willing (in some circumstances) to impose my personally
rendered moral judgments on others, but recognizing my moral principles
stem from my culture not from some objective moral truth.
The level of principles, I believe, does have some effect in the world, but
an extremely limited one. For instance, there are some who choose to become
vegetarians because of moral judgments they make at a personal level.
Extending this logic, some refuse to kill insects. Indeed, this logic of
morality might even compel some to consider giving up eating non-animal
produce as well animal produce. However, at this time we have no
alternative means to provide our bodies with the energy needed to sustain
life, so voices of advocacy for such a position would last little more than
a couple of months at the outside.
What these examples intend to illustrate is that an individually mediated
logic of morality can have some effect on the politics of morality within
the cultural community wherein those moral principles are resident.
However, in general the PRACTICE of morality--not just the principles--is
regulated by the community overall, not by individuals wielding some kind
of personal logic of moral assessment. Take, for example, Eric's iconic
examples of the Warsaw Ghetto and the Gaza Strip that launched us into this
conversation in the first place. What gives these examples their power is
not their moral suasion, per se, but their centrality in marking political
boundaries. The Warsaw Ghetto issue is emblematic of the anti-fascist
political/cultural alliance that operated into and out of the Second World
War--most of us come from cultures that inherit this cultural legacy, so we
are comfortable with this example. The Gaza Strip issue is emblematic of a
brand of Western European liberalism that partly inherits the anti-fascist
legacy, but has many other cultural roots, as well. My (particular brand
of) Jewish identity leads me to resist membership in this cultural
alliance.
To summarize, individual moral judgments do have a role in shaping how
cultural communities evolve. But, in general, what COUNTS as a moral issue
is determined by cultural membership. We can see this so clearly in the US
politics of abortion. Anti-abortion forces are mobilized by moral outrage
about the wanton killing of innocent pre-born babies. Presumably motivated
by religious and ethical tenets this issue gains its real force in marking
the boundary of a right wing political movement whose major agenda actually
concerns the centralization of wealth in the US upper class. This is an
issue that is particularly irksome to moderate Christians (and others) who
share the same basic moral and religious convictions as their anti-abortion
confreres, but who differ in their political location in the US nexus.
I think this is the basic point David (the other one) was making in his
distinction between the medical condition of listing (objectivist), and the
social condition:
adapting to a social condition [listing to one side] is really very
different from adapting to a medical one, and it is the former, not the
latter, that we mean we talk about oppression.
David Kirshner
----- Forwarded by David H Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU on 12/06/2006 02:51 AM -----
ERIC.RAMBERG who-is-at spps
.org To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Sent by: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
xmca-bounces who-is-at webe cc: (bcc: David H Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU)
r.ucsd.edu Subject: Re: [xmca] perceptions
12/05/2006 01:53
PM
Please respond to
"eXtended Mind,
Culture,
Activity"
David:
You have an interesting perception of how medical doctors assist their
patients : )
It is interesting that this thread has paralleled the thread Mike Cole
started regarding constructionism and constructivism. Wouldn't the
sentence, "the listing man has succumbed to regimes of truth as socially
orchestrated through the professional authority of the clinician", be
considered a social construction of the roles that patients and doctors
take?
Matt:
I appreciate the link to the different articles pertaining to this
constructionism/constructivism debate. Currently I am reading the Latour
(2002) offering.
good stuff,
eric
David H Kirshner
<dkirsh@lsu.edu> To: "eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent by: cc:
xmca-bounces who-is-at web Subject: Re: [xmca]
percertions
er.ucsd.edu
12/05/2006 10:27
AM
Please respond
to "eXtended
Mind, Culture,
Activity"
> Yes, David sometimes in life people misperceive their condition.
Ahhh, so the listing man has succumbed to regimes of truth as socially
orchestrated through the professional authority of the clinician. I'm glad
we agree on that!
David
PS. The point is worth arguing, but I guess I should fess up to the example
as having caught my attention more than the principle.
ERIC.RAMBERG who-is-at spps
.org To: "eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity"
Sent by: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
xmca-bounces who-is-at webe cc: (bcc: David H
Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU)
r.ucsd.edu Subject: [xmca] percertions
12/05/2006 09:41
AM
Please respond to
"eXtended Mind,
Culture,
Activity"
Hello David:
Dr. Oliver Sacks has a fabulous book out describing clinical tales
entitled, "The man who mistook his wife for a hat and other clinical
tales." In the tradition of Luria it discusses the romatic science. In
one of these tales he tells of a man who walks with a list so bad that it
appears he could topple over at any time. The strange part of this man's
affliction is that he does not perceive the list! Dr. Sacks proceeds to
videotape the man and play back the video so he can see how crooked he is
when he walks. The man is astonished at what he sees on the video. Yes,
David sometimes in life people misperceive their condition.
eric
David H Kirshner
<dkirsh@lsu.edu> To: "eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent by: cc:
xmca-bounces who-is-at web Subject: Re: [xmca] can't
have it both ways
er.ucsd.edu
12/05/2006 09:09
AM
Please respond
to "eXtended
Mind, Culture,
Activity"
Eric,
Good to know you have the God's-eye-view to determine when a perception is
a misperception.
David
ERIC.RAMBERG who-is-at spps
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Sent by: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
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have it both ways
12/05/2006 08:48
AM
Please respond to
"eXtended Mind,
Culture,
Activity"
Andy:
I apologize for misunderstanding your stance on mediated development.
My point was regarding a person that MISPERCEIVES being oppressed. This
misperception of being oppressed is what is causing the growing trend of
'victims' in US cities. People who currently live in the Gaza strip are
oppressed! Certainly much more so then any resident of a US city.
eric
Andy Blunden
<ablunden who-is-at mira.n To: "eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
et> cc:
Sent by: Subject: Re: [xmca] can't
have it both ways
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er.ucsd.edu
12/04/2006 02:57
PM
Please respond
to "eXtended
Mind, Culture,
Activity"
Mmmm. Obviously lots of cross-purposes communication going on here Eric.
You mentioned "the vastly growing 'victim' class of urban residents in
america," and now point out that life in any US city is better than the
Warsaw Ghetto or the Gaza Strip. What is your point?
I certainly don't "want to disregard any studies that place empirical
evidence for the zone of proximal development." Perhaps that was someone
else? I certainly do believe that development is a mediated process.
Andy
At 09:12 AM 4/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>Andy:
>
>You mention references I am unfamiliar with. I am not naive enough to
>assume since one person can achieve success regardless of circumstance
then
>it makes the case for all in the same circumstance. I certainly do not
>want to justify horrendous abuses but I also do not believe what exists in
>any area of the US to be horrendous. Warsaw of WW2 or the gaza strip
>certainly deserve that classification!
>
>My point was that you want to disregard any studies that place empirical
>evidence for the zone of proximal development yet you want to then claim
>poverty or oppresive conditions mediate a person's development. Which one
>is it Andy, is there a mediation of a person's development or is there
not.
>
>eric
>
>
>
>
> Andy
> Blunden
>
> <ablunden who-is-at mira.n To: "eXtended Mind,
> Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> et> cc:
>
> Sent by: Subject: Re: [xmca] can't
> have it both ways
> xmca-bounces who-is-at web
>
> er.ucsd.edu
>
>
>
>
>
> 12/01/2006
> 03:50
>
> PM
>
> Please
> respond
>
> to
> "eXtended
>
> Mind,
> Culture,
>
> Activity"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Eric, I think you are agreeing with people like Frank Furedi, Charles
>Taylor and Robert Hughes, who see people who identify themselves as
victims
>
>of some kind of injustice (e.g. feminists or antidiscriminationists) as
>actively adopting a victim-identity and thereby actually reinforcing their
>own suffering so in fact being the cause of their own suffering. Yes?
>You reject the fact that (for example) a poor ghetto resident is oppressed
>and believe that the fact that many who leave the ghetto and make good
>proves your point. Yes?
>Well, I think you're wrong. It is true that making a claim to having been
>treated unjustly does not ipso facto make your claim valid. So it is
>necessary to have some way of figuring out whether such claims are
>justified. I really don't think your criterion, of asking whether there
>exist people who escape from the condition of injustice, stands up to a
>cursory glance. It would justify the most horrendous abuses. Perhaps you
>argue that even though (for example) a ghetto-dweller is oppressed, they
>would be better advised to find an individual solution to their injustice
>and move house, rather than try to do something about poverty and
>discrimination. You are welcome to your view, but I think it misses the
>point. A read of Jane Jacobs' "Death and Life of Great American Cities" is
>always worthwhile; Jacobs show that people who are poor and powerless for
>other reasons end up having to live in a ghetto (where they suffer from
>further disadvantage resulting from place), and stay there only so long as
>they are poor and powerless.
>
>In relation to your second paragraph about mediation, you seem to be
>claiming that poverty and suffering is unmediated, i.e., it is not someone
>else's fault but your own. Yes? So you are putting a radical individualist
>position: the black man given the chair for a crime he did not commit is
>responsible for his own fate; if he had pulled himself up by his
bootstraps
>
>and got an education and a good job, he could have afforded a good lawyer.
>There are many problems with this position. But I doubt that I can
persuade
>
>you out of radical individualism in psychology at this late stage.
>
>Andy
>
>At 09:38 AM 1/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:
> >What if a person misperceives being oppressed? Such as the vastly
growing
> >"victim" class of urban residents in america. There is clearly a
> >misperception on their part that they are being oppressed. Choices in
> >their life have placed them in a position of feeling and acting
oppressed
> >yet numerous people who grow up in the same environment leave the "hood"
> >behind and make a great life for themselves.
> >
> >Are you merely stating a rhetorical question regarding oppression being
> >mediated and do not believe this to be the case? I truely am confused
by
> >your argument. You have taken a circuitous route of dismissing dualism
>yet
> >you use dualism to make your point.
> >
> >eric
>
>_______________________________________________
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Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435, AIM
identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
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----- Forwarded by David H Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU on 12/06/2006 02:51 AM -----
"Kellogg"
<kellogg who-is-at snue.ac. To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
kr> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent by: cc: (bcc: David H Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU)
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12/05/2006 05:11
PM
Please respond to
"eXtended Mind,
Culture,
Activity"
Deep in my misspent youth lies a well-spent summer in Port Sudan on the Red
Sea, where I had the good fortune to have all my belongings stolen. I spent
about a month working on ships during the day and hanging around the docks
in the evening.
The docks were mostly worked by a people called the Hadendowa (these turned
out to be Kipling's "fuzzy wuzzies"), and I remember that the stevedore
Hadendowa walked with an amazing stoop--they looked like some of the
overloaded steamers coming through the Suez Canal. But what was truly
amazing about this list was that when you put a sixty kilogram sack of rice
or a bag of concrete between their shoulder blades, they suddenly looked as
graceful as...well, not as a ballerina, I admit. But a lot more graceful
than you or I would look with carrying our own weight in cement.
As (the other) David says, the example catches attention more than the
principle. But the principle, if I understand correctly, is this: adapting
to a social condition is really very different from adapting to a medical
one, and it is the former, not the latter, that we mean we talk about
oppression. But the PERCEPTION (either of the observer or of the subject)
is not omni-relevant in either condition. Perceptions are, after all, part
of the adaptation.
(By the way, eric, the last time I visited the place I was born and grew up
in the Twin Cities, the black housing project, which was segregated from
our neighbourhood by a chain link fence, was chiefly inhabited by Hmong and
Somali refugees. The chain link fence was still there, though.)
David Kellogg
Seoul National University of
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