There was an issue of MCA on everyday and scientific concepts a couple of
years ago that could serve as a handy reference.
But the discussions in Thinking and Speech, and subsequent work by Davydov
appear to be requisite to addressing some of the
current issues.
I believe Harry is on XMCA. Perhaps he can help here.I will cc him just in
case.
mike
On 9/29/06, Julian Williams <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Barbara
>
> I was about to say something very similar about Bernstein on this in
> relationto BBs input also... mustbe the zeitgeist.
>
> BB and I want to understand how come many start to become alienated in
> 'schooling'; one answer is that that is the function of 'schooling as a
> preparation for work', but as you suggest Bernstein gives a look into the
> processes in school, the pedagogic discourses that mediate this.
>
> (How) Can we really change 'pedagogy' so that it is not alienating?
>
> Julian
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Barbara Crossouard <b.crossouard@sussex.ac.uk>
> To: "Valerie.Farnsworth@manchester.ac.uk" <
> Valerie.Farnsworth@manchester.ac.uk>, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:08:09 +0100
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Socio-Cultural Theory Interest Group Seminar Series
> I very much agree about school being about socialisation Valerie, and
> the same can be said about other educational settings, but this
> socialisation as you have suggested often remains implicit, rather than
> being made explicit, and schooling continues to represent itself as only
> involving the acquisition of epistemic knowledge, rather than ways of
> being and doing, where learning is a process of becoming, involving
> taking up a new subject position and identity.
>
> Harry Daniels has brought together Activity Theory and Bernstein very
> usefully I think (and I try to do the same when looking at formative
> assessment in my doctoral thesis), where Bernstein sees the teaching of
> the instructional content, as embedded in 'rules of social order',
> involving hierarchical power relations in the context and expectations
> of conduct, character and manner. These ways of being and doing are
> mostly simply assumed however, making educational processes potentially
> problematic for those of different social backgrounds for whom the
> expectations of conduct and character are far from transparent, and
> therefore contributing to the reproduction of dominant cultural values,
> at the same time as creating an appearance of equity.
>
> Wish I could have come to your meeting btw!
>
> Barbara
>
> Quoting Valerie Farnsworth <Valerie.Farnsworth@manchester.ac.uk>:
>
> > Thank you, Julian, for clarifying the comments made about
> > "scientific" and > "everyday". Was Vygotsky talking about scientific
> discourse or
> > scientific s> torytelling? I'd say that Ochs et al set out to discuss
> everyday
> > storytelli> ng and relate that to scientific storytelling (although
> only using
> > everyday> narratives to demonstrate this point). >
> >
> > Being more familiar with authors influenced by Vygotsky rather than
> > Vygotsk> y himself, I latched onto the later comment in our
> discussion: the
> > differen> ce between school and everyday discourse is the emphasis on
> learning
> > concep> ts. I find it helpful to think about stories as having at
> least two
> > dimensi> ons - the narrative content and the form of language used. So,
> I
> > interprete> d this part of our discussion as - the family storytelling
> is
> > different fro> m school storytelling in that the content or function
> (ie: language
> > has for> m and function dimensions) is different. However, as I think
> about it
> > now, > this would imply that the function of the home storytelling is
> > socialising > and the function of schooling is something else, like
> teaching
> > knowledge. B> ut then, isn't schooling also socialising? We may like
> to think that
> > school> ing is purely about developing knowledge in key areas, such as
> math
> > and sci> ence, but aren't we also actually socialising students in
> particular
> > ways o> f thinking and valuing particular types of knowledge? So, now
> I would
> > say t> hat the difference is the explicitness of the functions, where
> the
> > socialis> ing function is almost always implicit and the educational
> function
> > of lear> ning scientific storytelling is more explicit. Such educational
> > functions a> re not explicit in the everyday stories that Ochs et al
> present.
> >
> > Valerie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On B> ehalf Of bb
> > Sent: 28 September 2006 20:20
> > To: julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk; eXtended Mind, Culture,
> > Activity
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Socio-Cultural Theory Interest Group Seminar
> > Series
> >
> > Thank you Julian. I'll see if I can get a copy later this week when
> > I have> access to a real research library. But, in the interim I'm
> left
> > wondering> how it hapens that learning scientific concepts coincides,
> through
> > the ons> et of schooling, with what many complain about -- the
> isolation and
> > deconte> xtualization of school learning.
> >
> >
> > bb
> >
> >
> > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: "Julian Williams" <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>
> > > Dear BB
> > >
> > > The distinction I thought relevant at the meeting was between
> > 'everyday' > and
> > > 'scientific', the latter being mostly associated with
> > school-going/pedago> gy. The
> > > story telling in the family home seems to me 'everyday' and the
> > attendant>
> > > scientific structure an imposition of the authors. It seemed to me
> > that t> he Ochs
> > > paper misses Vygotsky's (Marx's?) notion of 'scientific', being
> > something>
> > > approached by the best thinking that human culture has to offer.
> > >
> > > (I think you might need sight of the first few pages of the paper
> > to make> sense
> > > of this...?)
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On> Behalf
> > > Of bb
> > > Sent: 28 September 2006 18:07
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Socio-Cultural Theory Interest Group Seminar
> > Series
> > >
> > >
> > > Interesting notes, especially around storytelling and the zpd, the
> > latte> r ever
> > > so elusive in our last x-discussion of it. I'm really wondering
> > about th> e
> > > relationships between and among concepts, explanation, language,
> > theories> and
> > > their constructions. What do we mean by "learning a concept' in
> > activit> y
> > > theory and how is that different from "learning language" or
> > "learning to>
> > > speak"?
> > >
> > > I could not access the ochs paper, but at least found the
> > abstract:
> > >
> > > The present study examines the activity of storytelling at
> > dinnertime in
> > > English-speaking, Caucasian-American families. Our findings
> > demonstrate t> hat,
> > > through the process of story co-narration, family members draw upon
> > and
> > > stimulate critical social , cognitive, and linguistic skills that
> > underli> e
> > > scientific and other scholarly discourse as they jointly construct,
> > decon> struct,
> > > and reconstruct theories of everyday events. Each story is
> > potentially a > theory
> > > of a set of events in that it contains an ex planation, which may
> > then be>
> > > overtly challenged and reworked by co-narrators. Our data suggest
> > that co> mplex
> > > theory-building through storytelling is promoted by (and
> > constitutive of)>
> > > interlocutors' familiarity with one another and/or the narrative
> > events. > As
> > > such, long before children enter a classroom, everyday storytelling
> > among>
> > > familiars constitutes a commonplace medium for socializing
> > perspective-ta> king,
> > > critical thinking, and other intellectual skills that have been
> > viewed as> o
> > > utcome s of formal scho oling. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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