Ana
Here is a nod. I read a number of languages
haltingly (I was, more or less, a two language
phd - unfortunately it was mathematics); however,
I have found it well worth the while looking at a
sketchy translation and looking deeper than that
translation.
Ed Wall
>Mike, Tony and all,
>I guess we need to enter an experiment! Tony
>refers to the last year's discussion that was
>following a real live course, if I am not wrong.
>The platform (technically speaking) was not the
>most comfortable for everyone at all times. I
>don't know of a platform which would be good for
>everyone. A wiki seems to be good -- for those
>who know how to use it, but it require a small
>training for those who don't know how to use it.
>Although I did not find it hard, It still may
>present some obstacles. I am trying to work on
>two projects through a wiki -- as a means of
>remote integration of ides and a depository of
>common materials. So far, I am the only one who
>"dares" to use it for editing. The collaborators
>seem to be eager "readers".
>
>On the silence:
>It would be nice if all the people who read this
>NOW, sent just a nod, a "M-hm!" a kind of
>acknowledgment that they hear. That would mimic
>a face-to-face conversation, in which a speaker
>may be encouraged or discouraged to take up a
>course of thought depending on the nods, looks
>and other manifestations of dialogicity. We do
>not have to say anything specific to be a part
>of a conversation. Saying something specific may
>be in many cases difficult because of the
>language barrier (really not to be
>underestimated!!), but in other cases the
>difficulty is also a product of the medium:
>writing rather than speaking. e-mail is
>somewhere in between, yet, still a writing
>rather than sounding.
>
>Finally, I am really interested to know more
>about the writings of Bronckart, Clot, Dolz and
>others mentioned by Fernanda Liberali. And how
>do they relate to Vygotsky, Holliday, Hasan and
>other theories of "langagière, textes et
>discours".
>Ana
>
>Mike Cole wrote:
>>Tony and Ana-- What this situation calls for is collective will! There are
>>many
>>ways. I would hesitate to go to a wiki platform having watched many
>>colleagues
>>crash there, what the heck, if someone (Tony?) sets it up for us and people
>>find it
>>useful, fine.
>>
>>Translate every message? XMCA has babblefish on it and there may well be
>>better
>>programs. Any got grad students who need to know a second language? (Oooops,
>>I mean, "for whom demonstrating knowledge a second language is required for
>>getting a phd"?) I had to learn two, but zero appears the current norm.
>>
>>If you merely glance at the world map at the lchc or xmca home pages all lit
>>up with
>>people logging in from all over the world it is clear that knowledge needed
>>resides
>>in this community-of-(mal?)practice. But if you read what people from all
>>those
>>place write, silence will serve us just fine.
>>
>>Whither, with a whisper, do we goeth?
>>:-)
>>mike
>>
>>On 8/27/06, Tony Whitson <twhitson@udel.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>Ana,
>>> Your points are both profound and practical.
>>>Everybody,
>>> I think this calls for a wiki platform, where each language version of
>>>any text can be continually improved and discussed by a number of
>>>participlants. In some cases, a participant will make revisions that are
>>>simply an improvement on the translation. In other cases alternatives can
>>>be put forward that raise questions about different ways of understanding
>>>the substance. All past versions are always available, and there can be a
>>>discussion page linked to the document page for discussing substantive as
>>>well as linguistic issues.
>>> There are lots of software platforms that could handle such a wiki. I
>>>think there was a discussion last year, however, on several interesting
>>>texts that I never was able to get in on. I think Mike sent me a password
>>>but it didn't work, and a few times I went on unendingly circular quests
>>>in which at some point or another the machine in San Diego told me where
>>>to click to get a password, but when I clicked it asked me for my
>>>password.
>>>
>>>On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>> I think you have a great point here, being one of those whose native
>>>language
>>>> is other than English. At the moment I am struggling with a review of an
>>>> article for a journal. The article was written in Portuguese and
>>>translated
>>>> into English -- the translation is BAD. But I am not sure, as I am
>>>reading it
>>>> if I do not understand what the author wants to convey because the
>>>> translation is bad, because the author's ideas are not clear or because
>>>what
>>>> the author wants to say can ONLY be said in Portuguese -- i.e. how much
>>>of
>>>> the cultural context I am missing? Are some of the concepts s/he uses
>>>> completely non-transparent for me the consequence of the missing
>>>cultural
>>>> context?
>>>> And that is precisely the fear of a non-native speaker: "Am I going to
>>>be so
>>>> misunderstood, that my thoughts in another language seem stupid?"
>>>> On the other hand -- having two or more languages at a disposal, making
>>>an
>>>> effort to understand them and to express oneself in the others -- makes
>>>for a
>>>> great intellectual grindstone. One has to bear with the process though
>>>-- it
>>>> is slower, but probably yields a better result at the end.
>>>>
>>>> I am all for your idea to get some of these texts in the original
>>>French, and
>>>> then to have them roughly translated (by a computer) into English, and
>>>then
>>>> to start a discussion using all the relevant languages. However -- we
>>>would
>>>> all need to have a two way or three way translation of the discussion
>>>texts
>>>> too! In order to construct something like that together -- a
>>>multilingual
>>>> discussion with a construction of new concepts or at least with mutual
>>>> understanding of the concepts -- we need someone to quickly translate
>>>every
>>>> posting (or at a request) into English/Spanish/French (and maybe more
>>>> languages...) Does it seem like very difficult?? Probably. But maybe we
>>>can
>>>> have a very small beginning if someone volunteers to do translations of
>>>the
>>>> discussion as it is unfolding.
>>>>
>>>> (Sending this again with a fear that I sound too non-English to you)
>>>> Ana
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike Cole wrote:
>>>>> Thanks very much, Fernanda.
>>>>> Your selections raise an interesting issue about language, e.g., the
>>>>> general
>>>>> ignorance of languages other than English among
>>>>> American academics.
>>>>>
>>>>> I raised this issue with my colleagues in Chile last December and I
>>>>> thought
>>>>> that we had an agreement for them to select a text
>>>>> that was in both Spanish and English and that they would be discussion
>>>>> leaders, writing in the language they felt most comfortable
>>>>> using, e.g. Spanish. This seemed important to me because in general I
>>>>> think
>>>>> that members of XMCA underestimate the communicative
>>>>> handcap of our members living in non-English speaking countries...
>>>Often
>>>>> such people can read English well but have difficulty
>>>>> writing it, and they feel that their ideas will not be valued owing to
>>>the
>>>>> inelegance of their English. So, putting the shoe on the
>>>>> other foot (so to speak) seemed like it would be useful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Using myself as a yardstick (old and unreliable!) my ability to read
>>>>> French
>>>>> is not good, having been displaced by Russian, and
>>>>> my ability to read spanish is little better, having been acquired only
>>>>> informally. But it may well be that we have enough French
>>>>> readers who can write English to lend a hand, or that (for example) we
>>>>> could
>>>>> get a couple of the papers (not whole books!)
>>>>> translated so that those who would be totally left out could at least
>>>read
>>>>> and struggle with notes about the texts in French.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another possibility would be to run an entire text through a computer
>>>>> translation. This will produce a semi-interpretable text but
>>>>> if the topic is familiar (e.g., Vygotsky, Bakhtin) readers like me
>>>might
>>>>> recover a lot of French and be able to participate while
>>>>> we had a strong French voice guiding the discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are other variations. We could simply retreat from the issue and
>>>>> read
>>>>> the one article, by Clot, that is in English.
>>> >> Lets see what others think. I prefer the bilingual approach personally,
>>>>> but
>>>>> if it is only a stunt, there is probably no point
>>>>> to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> A bientot!
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/27/06, Fernanda Liberali <liberali@uol.com.br> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are some of them. I marked the ones I prefer. I am very
>>>interested
>>>>>> in the role of argumentation as an instrument. Because I am an
>>>applied
>>>>>> linguist, this is a big issue, mainly, if one considers Benveniste's
>>>>>> concern against the role of language as an instrument.
>>>>>> Fernanda
>>>>>> *List*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronckart, J.P. 1993. *Action Theory and the analysis of action in
>>>>>> education.* Paper presented at the 5th European Association for
>>>Research
>>>>>> on Learning and Instruction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (1997). *Activité langagière, textes et discours.
>>>Pour
>>>>>> un
>>>>>> interactionisme socio-discursif*. Paris : Delachaux & Niestlé.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002a). La explicación en psicología ante el desafío
>>>>>> del
>>>>>> significado. *Estudios de Psicología, 23 (3)*, 387-416.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002b). La culture, sémantique du social formatrice
>>>de
>>>>>> la personne. In F. Rastier & S. Bouquet (Ed.), *Une introduction aux
>>>>>> sciences de la culture* (pp. 175-201). Paris : P.U.F.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2004). Pourquoi et comment analyser l'agir verbal et
>>>>>> non
>>>>>> verbal en situation de travail ? In : J.-P. Bronckart & Groupe LAF
>>>>>> (Ed.),
>>>>>> *L'analyse de l'agir et des discours dans trois situations de
>>>travail*.
>>>>>> Cahiers de la Section des Sciences de l'Education, xxxxxxxxxxxx.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronckart, J.-P. & Groupe LAF (2004). *L'analyse de l'agir et des
>>>>>> discours
>>>>>> dans trois situations de travail*. Cahiers de la Section des Sciences
>>>de
>>>>>> l'Education, xxxxxxxxxxxx.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002). La conscience comme " analyseur " des
>>>>>> épistémologies de Vygotski et Piaget. In Y. Clot (Dir.) *Avec
>>>Vygotski*,
>>>>>> 17-43.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2001). S'entendre pour agir et agir pour s'entendre.
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> J. M. Baudouin & J. Friedrich (Eds), *Théories de l'action et
>>>>>> éducation*,
>>>>>> 133-154. Bruxelles : De Boeck Université.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Clot, Y. (1999 a). I. Oddone, les instruments de l'action.
>>>*Territoires
>>>>>> du
>>>>>> travail*, *3*, 12-25.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Clot, Y. (2002). De Vygotski à Léontiev via Bakhtine. In Y. Clot
>>>(Dir.)
>>>>>> *Avec
>>>>>> Vygotski*, 165-185, Paris : la Dispute. 2ème édition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Clot, Y. & Faïta, D. (2000). Genres et styles en analyse du travail.
>>>>>> Concepts
>>>>>> et méthodes. *Travailler*, *4*, 7-42
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dolz, J. (1995) Escribir textos argumentativos para mejorar su
>>>>>> comprensión. *Aprendizaje - Separata*. pp. 65-77.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______ (1996) Learning argumentative capacities: a study of the
>>>effects
>>>>>> of a systematic and intensive teaching of argumentative discourse in
>>>>>> 11-12
>>>>>> year old children. *Argumentation*, n.º 10. pp. 227-251.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dolz, J; Rey, N. & Surian, M (2004) Le débat: un dialogue avec la
>>>pensée
>>>>>> de l'autre. *Le français *aujourd'hui, n.º 146. pp. 5-15.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Faïta, D. (1989). Mondes du travail et pratiques langagières.
>>>>>> *Langages*,
>>>>>> *93, 3*, 110-124
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Schneuwly, B. (1994). Genres et types de discours : considérations
>>>>>> psychologiques et ontogénétiques. In Y. Reuter (Dir.) *Les
>>>interactions
>>>>>> lecture-écriture,*155-173. Berne : Peter Lang.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Schneuwly, B. (2002). Le développement du concept de développement
>>>chez
>>>>>> Vygotski. In Y. Clot (Dir.)* Avec Vygotski, *267-280. Paris : La
>>>>>> Dispute.
>>>>>> 2ème édition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> *From:* Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>>>>>> *To:* Fernanda Liberali <liberali@uol.com.br>
>>>>>> *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:06 PM
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] Beyond Alterity/Intersubjectivity
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fernanda-- Send a list of article you think would be helpful and we
>>>can
>>>>>> scan them
>>>>>> for discussion.
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/27/06, Fernanda Liberali < liberali@uol.com.br> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Dear friends,
>>>>>> > Although I do not contribute to the list as I would love to, I would
>>>>>> > like to
>>> >>> > suggest that the members could add some of the Swiss writers with a
>>>>>> > Vygotskian and Bakhtinian backgroud to the list. I believe they
>>>could
>>>>>> > also
>>>>>> > contribute a lot to the discussion. In my opinion, we could try to
>>>add
>>>>>> > some
>>>>>> > of the discussion on the role, use and description of language
>>>>>> > developed by
>>>>>> > Bronckart, Schneuwely and Dolz, to mention some. I really believe
>>>that
>>>>>> > would
>>>>>> > be a wonderful opportunity to expand the discussion developed last
>>>>>> year
>>>>>> > with
>>>>>> > the ideas developed by Hasan, Daniels and Wells. I did it with my
>>>>>> group
>>>>>> > here
>>>>>> > in Brazil and I think it was a very nice opportunity for us to
>>>review
>>>>>> > our
>>>>>> > way of understanding language, activity, consciousness, sign and
>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>> > Unfortunately, we do not have the same amount of time to use the
>>>list
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> > discuss as we would love to, but, hopefully, we will be able to make
>>>>>> > some
>>>>>> > comments on the topic.
>>>>>> > Best regards,
>>>>>> > Fernanda Liberali
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> > From: "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>>>>>> > To: "Phil Chappell" <philchappell@mac.com >
>>>>>> > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>> > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 12:42 PM
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Beyond Alterity/Intersubjectivity
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > >I am sure several people are interested, Phil. And we can easily
>>>and
>>>>>> > > fruitfully
>>>>>> > > take this up in a lab meeting or two. But as always, we benefit if
>>>>>> > there
>>>>>> > > is
>>>>>> > > a
>>>>>> > > (are some) discussion leader(s). I will be away second week of
>>>Sept
>>>>>> > and
>>>>>> > > pretty
>>>>>> > > tied up into October, so why not see who can play discussion
>>>>>> > facilitator?
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > One idea that immediately occurs to me is that it would be helpful
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> > have
>>>>>> > > the early discussion
>>>>>> > > in which Hasan, Daniels, and others participated cut and paste
>>>>>> > together as
>>>>>> > > a
>>>>>> > > single file. We could
>>>>>> > > also create a single space on xmca where the papers and ancillary
>>>>>> > > materials
>>>>>> > > for discussion
>>>>>> > > were brought together in one place for people who experience
>>>>>> > navigating
>>>>>> > > LCHC/XMCA>
>>>>>> > > mike
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > On 8/27/06, Phil Chappell <philchappell@mac.com > wrote:
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > >> Thanks so much, Gordon for making your paper available. bb has
>>>>>> > >> already suggested an approach to the two papers (yours and
>>>>>> > >> Halliday's) and I guess we should wait for him to get back online
>>>>>> > >> before going any further.
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > >> It looks like Gordon's two papers could be grouped and we retain
>>>>>> bb's
>>>>>> > >> "dualing papers" strategy? Having Voloshinov/Bakhtin in the mix
>>>>>> makes
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > >> for an interesting time, especially in terms of talking about
>>>sign
>>>>>> > >> mediation.
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > >> Anyone else interested?
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > >> Phil
>>>>>> > >> On 27/08/2006, at 12:49 AM, Mike Cole wrote:
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > >> > More food for thought and perhaps for discussion? bb, phil,
>>>>>> > >> > david.....??
>>>>>> > >> > mike
>>>>>> > >> >
>>>>>> > >> > On 8/26/06, Gordon Wells < gwells@ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> > >> >>
>>>>>> > >> >> Phil and Others discussing LSV and MAKH,
>>>>>> > >> >>
>>>>>> > >> >> I have been too busy teaching to do more than lurk during this
>>>>>> > >> >> discussion. However, since you and Bill have referred to my
>>>>>> paper
>>>>>> > in
>>>>>> > >> >> Linguistics and Education, I am taking the liberty of
>>>attaching
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> > >> >> paper I recently finished which has advanced my own thinking
>>>on
>>>>>> > this
>>>>>> > >> >> and related topics. It is currently under review.
>>>>>> > >> >>
>>>>>> > >> >> Gordon
>>>>>> > >> >> --
>>>>>> > >> >> Gordon Wells
>>>>>> > >> >> Dept of Education,
>>>>>> > http://education.ucsc.edu/faculty/
>>>>>> > >> >> gwells
>>>>>> > >> >> UC Santa Cruz.
>>>>>> > >> >> gwells@ucsc.edu
>>>>>> > >> >>
>>>>>> > >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > >> >> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> > >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> > >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>> > >> >>
>>>>>> > >> >>
>>>>>> > >> >>
>>>>>> > >> >>
>>>>>> > >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>> > >> > xmca mailing list
>>>>>> > >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> > >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > > xmca mailing list
>>>>>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>> 151 W. Tulpehocken St.
>>>>
>>>> Philadelphia, PA 19144
>>>>
>>>> Home office: (215) 843-2909
>>>>
>>>> Mobile: (267) 334-2905
>>>>
>>>> ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.speakeasy.org/~anamshane <
>>>http://www.speakeasy.org/%7Eanamshane>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>
>>>
>>>Tony Whitson
>>>UD School of Education
>>>NEWARK DE 19716
>>>
>>>twhitson@udel.edu
>>>_______________________________
>>>
>>>"those who fail to reread
>>> are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
>>> -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>xmca mailing list
>>>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>xmca mailing list
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>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.
>
>151 W. Tulpehocken St.
>
>Philadelphia, PA 19144
>
>Home office: (215) 843-2909
>
>Mobile: (267) 334-2905
>
>ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org>
>
>http://www.speakeasy.org/~anamshane <http://www.speakeasy.org/%7Eanamshane>
>
>
>
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