Exactly! ..and I hope teachers continue to talk about the role of emotions and
identity so as not to take it for granted. The tendency to assume that theory is
applied in practice every time a teacher is in the classroom can create a
disconnect between researchers and practitioners.
We all know that "something magical" should be a part of learning..but in reality,
not necessarily so. Yes Andy, I want to understand why there isn't room in
Engstroms Activity model for emotion and self-consciousness?
Just an inquiring novice...
---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 10:49:54 +1000
>From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: something magical
>To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
>Thanks Ana. I think any teacher would find it a bit dumb to even talk about
>the role of emotions and identity in learning, since reward and punishment,
>scolding and praise are such a ubiquitous parts of pedagogy. It's taken for
>granted.
>But if, for example, you look at Engstrom's Activity model, with Rules,
>Community, Division of Labour, Subject, Object and Instrument, you don't
>see a lot of room for self-consciousness and emotion do you?
>I think we all know that that 'something magical' is a part of learning,
>but the idea of activity mediated by artefacts seems to missing something
>here.
>Andy
>At 01:51 PM 16/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>>Hmm, I am going to jump in on this one.. is it an issue of identity or
>>validity?
>>
>>Take for example an 8 year old who has been playing the violin using the
>>Suzuki
>>method ( learning through play and hearing the music) since 3 years of
>>age. By
>>8, the child is playing..Vivaldi. Concerto in A Minor First Movement.
>>
>>As the child performs on stage, does something magical happen to the
audience
>>or to the child? Will precision be considered as learning? To what degree? or
>>should emotions play an important role in the child's learning?
>>
>>
>>---- Original message ----
>> >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 07:46:11 -0700
>> >From: "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> >Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: something magical
>> >To: "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net>
>> >Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >
>> >Sounds plausible to me, Andy. It makes an easy link to issues of identity.
>> >mike
>> >
>> >On 6/14/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> If I want to remember every note in a piano piece then it helps lots if I
>> >> can play it with my fingers and hear the notes back, doesn't it? The
>> >> sensuous experience of playing and hearing the music as well as seeing
the
>> >> notes on the page, helps me reproduce it. Can we throw the emotional
>> >> experience of learning something you wanted to learn, or of recognising
>> >> yourself in a play, in the same basket with other sensuous experiences,
>> >> like that of playing and hearing the music? Aren't they all part of
>> >> learning? What is raised with emotion is *why* does a particular thing
>> >> carry an emotional load, and therefore get learnt? What was the source
of
>> >> the rush Franklin felt when he recognised himself in the play, since I am
>> >> guessing that it was that recognition which gave the rush, rather than
the
>> >> "getting it" at last?
>> >>
>> >> Andy
>> >> At 09:49 AM 14/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>> >> >Great turn in the discussion!
>> >> >1) Sure there is a long history of interaction before the Franklin event.
>> >> >And its
>> >> >relevant. There was a long history to two sisters playing sisters also.
>> >> >And emotion
>> >> >and identity involved. But all of that is elided in the LSV discussion
>> >> >(not a criticism,
>> >> >he was using it as an example) and yet poeple site it in discussions of
>> >> >how play
>> >> >creates a zoped.
>> >> >
>> >> >2. LSV and ARL= every word generalizes/classifies. We have words in
the
>> >> >English
>> >> >language like learning, development, thought, emotion (see prior
>>messages
>> >> in
>> >> >this thread. They make analytic distinctions referring to/relevant to
>> >> >presumed processes
>> >> >that are themselves mutually constituitive. Yes, we murder to dissect.
>> >> >
>> >> >No, we cannot say what we mean.
>> >> >
>> >> >Not sure where to go with this conversation at present. We need to
read
>> >> >David K's
>> >> >work collectively in order to be able to take in his alternative view of
>> >> >things. We have
>> >> >Kevin's work that people wanted to discuss waiting in the wings. We
have
>> >> >summer
>> >> >approaching.
>> >> >
>> >> >And I have a meeting I have to be in 5 minutes ago.
>> >> >mike
>> >> >
>> >> >On 6/14/06, Renee <rhayes@mundo-r.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Right, I was just thinking something like that when I read Jennifer's
>> >> >>message, too. At first there was some discussion about relationships
and
>> >> >>learning and ZPD, and surely emotion and relationships can't be
teased
>> >> >>apart?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>renee
>> >> >>
>> >> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >> >>From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>>bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> >> On
>> >> >>Behalf Of Jennifer Vadeboncoeur
>> >> >>Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:07 PM
>> >> >>To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> >> >>Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: something magical
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Just reading through these, so I may have missed something, but
>> >> >>wasn't "emotion" there all along? Why has emotion been separated
out?
>> >> >>It seems we are assuming we can talk about thought without
>> >> >>considering emotion, and while we've practiced doing that, I imagine
>> >> >>it to be an unfortunate necessity given our language, rather than
>> >> >>something "real." Hmmmm ... again, I may have missed something.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Best to all - jen
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Surely it didn't all happen in the final play episode - his
>> >> understanding
>> >> >> >had to be building through the earlier description/abandonment
>>moments
>> >> -
>> >> >> >Vivian's enactment may have crystallized Franklin's thoughts - but
a
>> >> lot
>> >> >>of
>> >> >> >groundwork had been done beforehand. when did emotion enter in
-
>> >> become
>> >> >> >instrumental in the learning? was it building as well during the
>> >> >>unpleasant
>> >> >> >episodes with his classmates? or was it merely in the eureka rush?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >On 6/14/06, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>For goodness sake lets agree that we are not talking about the
>> >> >> >>biochemistry
>> >> >> >>of
>> >> >> >>emotion, but of emotion as a bio-social-cogntive aspect of
human
>> >> >> >>functioning
>> >> >> >>that
>> >> >> >>is integral to human functioning in the world!
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>The self-recognition/identity process in the case of Franklin
seems
>> >> key
>> >> >> >>to
>> >> >> >>me
>> >> >> >>as well. Why couldn't he construct that
>> >> >>self-knowledge-memory-recognition
>> >> >> >>from
>> >> >> >>an other's description and several others' abandonment of him a
few
>> >> >> >>moments
>> >> >> >>earlier
>> >> >> >>but could when drawn into the play? That seems to me a crucial
>> >> question.
>> >> >> >>mike
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>On 6/14/06, deborah downing-wilson
<ddowningw@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I agree. like most of us just starting out I've been struggling
>> >> with
>> >> >> >>the
>> >> >> >>> emotional element - trying to come at it from as many angles
as
>> >> >>possible
>> >> >> >>-
>> >> >> >>> I
>> >> >> >>> like Plotkin's speculation that the emotional intensity of the
>> >> >> >>> parent-child
>> >> >> >>> relationship suggests emotion has a place in the deliberate
>> >> passing
>> >> >>of
>> >> >> >>> information to the next generation - it seems fitting that it
has
>> >> a
>> >> >> >>> special
>> >> >> >>> place in all learning. We certainly do a lot of whooping and
>> >> >>cheering
>> >> >> >>> when
>> >> >> >>> our babies/children learn somehting new. Damasio's work is
also
>> >> >> >>> interesting
>> >> >> >>> - like others he argues that emotions are socially constructed
-
>> >> but
>> >> >> >>turns
>> >> >> >>> the idea around. Instead of being expressions of inner
feelings,
>> >> the
>> >> >> >>> learned social response (smile) engenders inner subjective
>> >> feelings
>> >> >> >>> (joy). can
>> >> >> >>> we capture and explore these events within the zoped? can
we
>> >> create
>> >> >> >>> contexts that encourage emotional envolvement? Paley
seemed to
>>do
>> >> it
>> >> >> >>with
>> >> >> >>> Franklin - but she and Franklin had a long history together -
>> >> built
>> >> >> >>trust.
>> >> >> >>> so many questions. no time.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Deb
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> On 6/14/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > I can't explain Deborah. This is just something I've heard
about
>> >> in
>> >> >> >>the
>> >> >> >>> > media. I hesitate to say any more and only further display
my
>> >> >> >>ignorance.
>> >> >> >>> I
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > only know that when you learn something and you get a big
>> >> emotional
>> >> >> >>hit
>> >> >> >>> at
>> >> >> >>> > the same time, positive or negative, you're not going to
forget
>> >> it.
>> >> >> >>> > Learning is not a totally 'platonic' process is it -
*something*
>> >> >> >>changes
>> >> >> >>> > in
>> >> >> >>> > our body when we acquire habits.
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Andy
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > At 09:26 PM 13/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>> >> >> >>> > >biochemical affect? please explain.
>> >> >> >>> > >
>> >> >> >>> > >On 6/13/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net > wrote:
>> >> >> >>> > >>
>> >> >> >>> > >>Well I think it would be superficial to stop at emotion
>> >> (though
>> >> >>at
>> >> >>a
>> >> >> >>> > very
>> >> >> >>> > >>basic level the experience of emotion is intuitively
>> >> accessible
>> >> >>and
>> >> >> >>> > >>telling). I think emotions only make sense if we have a
>>handle
>> >> on
>> >> >> >>> > identity
>> >> >> >>> > >>and however we understand what it is that it means to
"do"
>> >> >> >>something,
>> >> >> >>> to
>> >> >> >>> > >>be
>> >> >> >>> > >>an actor in the world. If we leave emotion at the level of
>> >> >> >>biochemical
>> >> >> >>> > >>affect we surely have no real way of connecting it with
>> >> learning.
>> >> >> >>Why
>> >> >> >>> > was
>> >> >> >>> > >>Franklin delighted when he saw that he was the star in
this
>> >> >>little
>> >> >> >>> play?
>> >> >> >>> > >>How did he recognise that it was himself?
>> >> >> >>> > >>Andy
>> >> >> >>> > >>At 07:37 AM 13/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>> >> >> >>> > >> >My guess is that it is recriprocal emotionality, Andy. A
>> >> >> >>particular
>> >> >> >>> > kind
>> >> >> >>> > >> >of difference that makes a difference.
>> >> >> >>> > >> >What were people feeling when everyone turned to
>>Franklin as
>> >> >>they
>> >> >> >>> > >> >recognized Vivian "being" Franklin? What
>> >> >> >>> > >> >did they feel when he slapped his knee and said. "You
got
>>it
>> >> >>just
>> >> >> >>> > >> >right"? And what did he feel? Certainly not bad,
>> >> >> >>> > >> >judging from the evidence.
>> >> >> >>> > >> >
>> >> >> >>> > >> >And what was THE cause of this convergence of
positive
>> >> affect?
>> >> >>Its
>> >> >> >>> in
>> >> >> >>> > the
>> >> >> >>> > >> >intricacies of the answer to that question
>> >> >> >>> > >> >that we need a Zo to help us understand.
>> >> >> >>> > >> >mike
>> >> >> >>> > >> >
>> >> >> >>> > >> >On 6/12/06, Andy Blunden <<mailto:
>>ablunden@mira.net>
>> >> >> >>> ablunden@mira.net
>> >> >> >>> > >
>> >> >> >>> > >>wrote:
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>Mike Cole said:
>> >> >> >>> > >> >> >[snip]
>> >> >> >>> > >> >> >This "something magical" certainly is very
important in
>> >> our
>> >> >> >>> > >>afterschool
>> >> >> >>> > >> >> >work. It includes not only the experience and good
will
>> >> of
>> >> >> >>those
>> >> >> >>> > >>involved,
>> >> >> >>> > >> >> >but also strong emotional bonds that grow
between
>> >> >>undergrads,
>> >> >> >>> kids
>> >> >> >>> > and
>> >> >> >>> > >> >> >staff. -- almost a kind of emotional flow.
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>Mike, this "something magical" seems to be the
>>emotional
>> >> hit
>> >> >>that
>> >> >> >>> > both
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>learner and teacher get when the learner makes a
>> >> breakthrough
>> >> >>in
>> >> >> >>> > >>learning
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>and development, doesn't it? I remember hearing
stuff in
>> >> the
>> >> >> >>media
>> >> >> >>> > which
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>went to the neurological basis of how emotions
reinforce
>> >> >> >>learning,
>> >> >> >>> > and I
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>understand it is a regular part of sports coaching
>>nowadays
>> >> to
>> >> >> >>> > >>deliberately
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>manipulate the emotional experiences of performers
>>when
>> >> they
>> >> >>do
>> >> >>a
>> >> >> >>> > thing
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>right or do it wrong supposedly to bring about
>>neurological
>> >> >> >>changes
>> >> >> >>> > >>which
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>will attract or repel repetitions of the action.
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>It always seemed to me that in our theory of the use
of
>> >> >>artefacts
>> >> >> >>> > this
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>emotional loading tends to be overlooked, and yet
that
>>is
>> >> >>surely
>> >> >> >>> > exactly
>> >> >> >>> > >> >>what is magical?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>
>Andy Blunden, for Victorian Peace Network, phone +61 3 9380 9435
>Global Justice Tours: http://ethicalpolitics.org
>
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