Ana-- What pleasure could be taken in such a situation if the identity were
recognized
as invalid? In either the case of the 8 year old or Franklin?
mike
On 6/16/06, Ana Balboa-Guenthner <ana.guenthner@csun.edu> wrote:
>
> Hmm, I am going to jump in on this one.. is it an issue of identity or
> validity?
>
> Take for example an 8 year old who has been playing the violin using the
> Suzuki
> method ( learning through play and hearing the music) since 3 years of
> age. By
> 8, the child is playing..Vivaldi. Concerto in A Minor First Movement.
>
> As the child performs on stage, does something magical happen to the
> audience
> or to the child? Will precision be considered as learning? To what degree?
> or
> should emotions play an important role in the child's learning?
>
>
> ---- Original message ----
> >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 07:46:11 -0700
> >From: "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: something magical
> >To: "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net>
> >Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> >Sounds plausible to me, Andy. It makes an easy link to issues of
> identity.
> >mike
> >
> >On 6/14/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> If I want to remember every note in a piano piece then it helps lots if
> I
> >> can play it with my fingers and hear the notes back, doesn't it? The
> >> sensuous experience of playing and hearing the music as well as seeing
> the
> >> notes on the page, helps me reproduce it. Can we throw the emotional
> >> experience of learning something you wanted to learn, or of recognising
> >> yourself in a play, in the same basket with other sensuous experiences,
> >> like that of playing and hearing the music? Aren't they all part of
> >> learning? What is raised with emotion is *why* does a particular thing
> >> carry an emotional load, and therefore get learnt? What was the source
> of
> >> the rush Franklin felt when he recognised himself in the play, since I
> am
> >> guessing that it was that recognition which gave the rush, rather than
> the
> >> "getting it" at last?
> >>
> >> Andy
> >> At 09:49 AM 14/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
> >> >Great turn in the discussion!
> >> >1) Sure there is a long history of interaction before the Franklin
> event.
> >> >And its
> >> >relevant. There was a long history to two sisters playing sisters
> also.
> >> >And emotion
> >> >and identity involved. But all of that is elided in the LSV discussion
> >> >(not a criticism,
> >> >he was using it as an example) and yet poeple site it in discussions
> of
> >> >how play
> >> >creates a zoped.
> >> >
> >> >2. LSV and ARL= every word generalizes/classifies. We have words in
> the
> >> >English
> >> >language like learning, development, thought, emotion (see prior
> messages
> >> in
> >> >this thread. They make analytic distinctions referring to/relevant to
> >> >presumed processes
> >> >that are themselves mutually constituitive. Yes, we murder to dissect.
> >> >
> >> >No, we cannot say what we mean.
> >> >
> >> >Not sure where to go with this conversation at present. We need to
> read
> >> >David K's
> >> >work collectively in order to be able to take in his alternative view
> of
> >> >things. We have
> >> >Kevin's work that people wanted to discuss waiting in the wings. We
> have
> >> >summer
> >> >approaching.
> >> >
> >> >And I have a meeting I have to be in 5 minutes ago.
> >> >mike
> >> >
> >> >On 6/14/06, Renee <rhayes@mundo-r.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>Right, I was just thinking something like that when I read Jennifer's
> >> >>message, too. At first there was some discussion about relationships
> and
> >> >>learning and ZPD, and surely emotion and relationships can't be
> teased
> >> >>apart?
> >> >>
> >> >>renee
> >> >>
> >> >>-----Original Message-----
> >> >>From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> >> On
> >> >>Behalf Of Jennifer Vadeboncoeur
> >> >>Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:07 PM
> >> >>To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> >>Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: something magical
> >> >>
> >> >>Just reading through these, so I may have missed something, but
> >> >>wasn't "emotion" there all along? Why has emotion been separated out?
> >> >>It seems we are assuming we can talk about thought without
> >> >>considering emotion, and while we've practiced doing that, I imagine
> >> >>it to be an unfortunate necessity given our language, rather than
> >> >>something "real." Hmmmm ... again, I may have missed something.
> >> >>
> >> >>Best to all - jen
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >Surely it didn't all happen in the final play episode - his
> >> understanding
> >> >> >had to be building through the earlier description/abandonment
> moments
> >> -
> >> >> >Vivian's enactment may have crystallized Franklin's thoughts - but
> a
> >> lot
> >> >>of
> >> >> >groundwork had been done beforehand. when did emotion enter in -
> >> become
> >> >> >instrumental in the learning? was it building as well during the
> >> >>unpleasant
> >> >> >episodes with his classmates? or was it merely in the eureka rush?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >On 6/14/06, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>For goodness sake lets agree that we are not talking about the
> >> >> >>biochemistry
> >> >> >>of
> >> >> >>emotion, but of emotion as a bio-social-cogntive aspect of human
> >> >> >>functioning
> >> >> >>that
> >> >> >>is integral to human functioning in the world!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>The self-recognition/identity process in the case of Franklin
> seems
> >> key
> >> >> >>to
> >> >> >>me
> >> >> >>as well. Why couldn't he construct that
> >> >>self-knowledge-memory-recognition
> >> >> >>from
> >> >> >>an other's description and several others' abandonment of him a
> few
> >> >> >>moments
> >> >> >>earlier
> >> >> >>but could when drawn into the play? That seems to me a crucial
> >> question.
> >> >> >>mike
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>On 6/14/06, deborah downing-wilson <ddowningw@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I agree. like most of us just starting out I've been
> struggling
> >> with
> >> >> >>the
> >> >> >>> emotional element - trying to come at it from as many angles as
> >> >>possible
> >> >> >>-
> >> >> >>> I
> >> >> >>> like Plotkin's speculation that the emotional intensity of the
> >> >> >>> parent-child
> >> >> >>> relationship suggests emotion has a place in the deliberate
> >> passing
> >> >>of
> >> >> >>> information to the next generation - it seems fitting that it
> has
> >> a
> >> >> >>> special
> >> >> >>> place in all learning. We certainly do a lot of whooping and
> >> >>cheering
> >> >> >>> when
> >> >> >>> our babies/children learn somehting new. Damasio's work is
> also
> >> >> >>> interesting
> >> >> >>> - like others he argues that emotions are socially constructed
> -
> >> but
> >> >> >>turns
> >> >> >>> the idea around. Instead of being expressions of inner
> feelings,
> >> the
> >> >> >>> learned social response (smile) engenders inner subjective
> >> feelings
> >> >> >>> (joy). can
> >> >> >>> we capture and explore these events within the zoped? can we
> >> create
> >> >> >>> contexts that encourage emotional envolvement? Paley seemed to
> do
> >> it
> >> >> >>with
> >> >> >>> Franklin - but she and Franklin had a long history together -
> >> built
> >> >> >>trust.
> >> >> >>> so many questions. no time.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Deb
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> On 6/14/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > I can't explain Deborah. This is just something I've heard
> about
> >> in
> >> >> >>the
> >> >> >>> > media. I hesitate to say any more and only further display my
> >> >> >>ignorance.
> >> >> >>> I
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > only know that when you learn something and you get a big
> >> emotional
> >> >> >>hit
> >> >> >>> at
> >> >> >>> > the same time, positive or negative, you're not going to
> forget
> >> it.
> >> >> >>> > Learning is not a totally 'platonic' process is it -
> *something*
> >> >> >>changes
> >> >> >>> > in
> >> >> >>> > our body when we acquire habits.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Andy
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > At 09:26 PM 13/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
> >> >> >>> > >biochemical affect? please explain.
> >> >> >>> > >
> >> >> >>> > >On 6/13/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net > wrote:
> >> >> >>> > >>
> >> >> >>> > >>Well I think it would be superficial to stop at emotion
> >> (though
> >> >>at
> >> >>a
> >> >> >>> > very
> >> >> >>> > >>basic level the experience of emotion is intuitively
> >> accessible
> >> >>and
> >> >> >>> > >>telling). I think emotions only make sense if we have a
> handle
> >> on
> >> >> >>> > identity
> >> >> >>> > >>and however we understand what it is that it means to "do"
> >> >> >>something,
> >> >> >>> to
> >> >> >>> > >>be
> >> >> >>> > >>an actor in the world. If we leave emotion at the level of
> >> >> >>biochemical
> >> >> >>> > >>affect we surely have no real way of connecting it with
> >> learning.
> >> >> >>Why
> >> >> >>> > was
> >> >> >>> > >>Franklin delighted when he saw that he was the star in this
> >> >>little
> >> >> >>> play?
> >> >> >>> > >>How did he recognise that it was himself?
> >> >> >>> > >>Andy
> >> >> >>> > >>At 07:37 AM 13/06/2006 -0700, you wrote:
> >> >> >>> > >> >My guess is that it is recriprocal emotionality, Andy. A
> >> >> >>particular
> >> >> >>> > kind
> >> >> >>> > >> >of difference that makes a difference.
> >> >> >>> > >> >What were people feeling when everyone turned to
> Franklin as
> >> >>they
> >> >> >>> > >> >recognized Vivian "being" Franklin? What
> >> >> >>> > >> >did they feel when he slapped his knee and said. "You got
> it
> >> >>just
> >> >> >>> > >> >right"? And what did he feel? Certainly not bad,
> >> >> >>> > >> >judging from the evidence.
> >> >> >>> > >> >
> >> >> >>> > >> >And what was THE cause of this convergence of positive
> >> affect?
> >> >>Its
> >> >> >>> in
> >> >> >>> > the
> >> >> >>> > >> >intricacies of the answer to that question
> >> >> >>> > >> >that we need a Zo to help us understand.
> >> >> >>> > >> >mike
> >> >> >>> > >> >
> >> >> >>> > >> >On 6/12/06, Andy Blunden <<mailto:
> ablunden@mira.net>
> >> >> >>> ablunden@mira.net
> >> >> >>> > >
> >> >> >>> > >>wrote:
> >> >> >>> > >> >>Mike Cole said:
> >> >> >>> > >> >> >[snip]
> >> >> >>> > >> >> >This "something magical" certainly is very important
> in
> >> our
> >> >> >>> > >>afterschool
> >> >> >>> > >> >> >work. It includes not only the experience and good
> will
> >> of
> >> >> >>those
> >> >> >>> > >>involved,
> >> >> >>> > >> >> >but also strong emotional bonds that grow between
> >> >>undergrads,
> >> >> >>> kids
> >> >> >>> > and
> >> >> >>> > >> >> >staff. -- almost a kind of emotional flow.
> >> >> >>> > >> >>
> >> >> >>> > >> >>Mike, this "something magical" seems to be the
> emotional
> >> hit
> >> >>that
> >> >> >>> > both
> >> >> >>> > >> >>learner and teacher get when the learner makes a
> >> breakthrough
> >> >>in
> >> >> >>> > >>learning
> >> >> >>> > >> >>and development, doesn't it? I remember hearing stuff in
> >> the
> >> >> >>media
> >> >> >>> > which
> >> >> >>> > >> >>went to the neurological basis of how emotions reinforce
> >> >> >>learning,
> >> >> >>> > and I
> >> >> >>> > >> >>understand it is a regular part of sports coaching
> nowadays
> >> to
> >> >> >>> > >>deliberately
> >> >> >>> > >> >>manipulate the emotional experiences of performers
> when
> >> they
> >> >>do
> >> >>a
> >> >> >>> > thing
> >> >> >>> > >> >>right or do it wrong supposedly to bring about
> neurological
> >> >> >>changes
> >> >> >>> > >>which
> >> >> >>> > >> >>will attract or repel repetitions of the action.
> >> >> >>> > >> >>
> >> >> >>> > >> >>It always seemed to me that in our theory of the use of
> >> >>artefacts
> >> >> >>> > this
> >> >> >>> > >> >>emotional loading tends to be overlooked, and yet that
> is
> >> >>surely
> >> >> >>> > exactly
> >> >> >>> > >> >>what is magical?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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