Notice that Labov reframes my initial inquiry.
William Labov writes, "the student of his own intuitions, producing both
data and theory in a language abstracted from every social context, is the
ultimate lame" (292). (Language and the inner city)
If the lads are producing data and theory about being lads abstracted from
social context they are lames. If I produce data and theory about being a
college professor abstracted from social context I am a lame (anyone could
have told you that without my asking!!).
I hear tell that Bourdieu raises a similar problem in Theory of Practice.
Seems to me that the issue of positionality and subjectivity get into this
discussion as well.
Thanks for all the thought provoking comments and observations!!
mike (a peripheral participant in...... or was tha a central participant in,
or was it
outside of.....?)
On 4/17/06, Dale Cyphert <Dale.Cyphert@uni.edu> wrote:
>
> This was an issue for my dissertation work, a description of rhetorical
> processes on construction worksites. I described the issue in terms of
> "rhetorical competence", which I see as quite a bit different from
> either the inside/outside boundary or even centrality to the community.
>
> We recognize, for example, that "boundary crossers" are exactly that
> because they have particularly GOOD rhetorical skills in two or more
> communities. Further, an exceedingly important member of a
> community...a respected elder, for instance, or a woman...might
> nevertheless lack key abilities (or status markers) that allow
> rhetorical participation.
>
> In my case, I really had no good way to compare the behaviors of my
> group with behaviors of other groups in the same culture, and thus no
> way to say whether my own subjects were acting competently according to
> the norms of their own culture. Even if I had been able to do a
> comparison, defining any community's own measures of rhetorical
> competence is bigger than a chapter in a dissertation! I got away with
> just calling the problem a "limitation" in the research findings, but I
> think it's an especially important issue when the subject of study is
> language, communication or rhetorical processes.
>
>
> Dale Cyphert, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor
> Department of Management
> University of Northern Iowa
> 1227 W.27th Street
> Cedar Falls, IA 50614-0125
> (319) 273-6150
> dale.cyphert@uni.edu
>
>
> Ares, Nancy (Warner) wrote:
> > Lave and Wenger would call it legitimate peripheral participation, or
> > engagement in practices that are increasingly central to the practices
> of a
> > community...
> >
> > Nancy Ares
> > Assistant Professor
> > Teaching & Curriculum
> > The Warner Graduate School of Education
> > and Human Development
> > University of Rochester
> > P.O. Box 270425
> > Rochester, NY 14627
> > 585-273-5957
> > fax 585-473-7598
> >
> >
> >>----------
> >>From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of
> >>xmca-whoever@comcast.net
> >>Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:33 PM
> >>To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>Subject: RE: [xmca] "informants as lames"
> >>
> >>Yes, and we also face the limitations of the simple dichotomy of
> "inside"
> >>and "outside", when there is at least a third possibility of being "on
> the
> >>border".
> >>In a more fuzzy way, can we consider degrees of being inside, and
> movement
> >>toward the inside being complementary to appropriation? What would
> >>movement toward the outside be called?
> >>
> >> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> >>From: "Ares, Nancy (Warner)" <nancy.ares@rochester.edu>
> >>
> >>>Whose purpose would we be referring to, the individuals, the sub-group
> >>>(lads), the larger AT (the school), or society (for example)? From one
> >>>perspective, the lads, I can see that they would consider themselves
> >>>outsiders. From the school's perspective, I could see that they would
> be
> >>>considered insiders who are troubled or troublemakers, but still
> inside.
> >>>>From a societal perspective, I could see them as insiders of a
> >>
> >>particular
> >>
> >>>kind, but clearly involved and influential.
> >>>
> >>>The unit of analysis question emerges again...
> >>>
> >>>Nancy Ares
> >>>Assistant Professor
> >>>Teaching & Curriculum
> >>>The Warner Graduate School of Education
> >>> and Human Development
> >>>University of Rochester
> >>>P.O. Box 270425
> >>>Rochester, NY 14627
> >>>585-273-5957
> >>>fax 585-473-7598
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>----------
> >>>>From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Worthen, Helena
> >>>>Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>>>Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 10:49 AM
> >>>>To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>>>Subject: Re: [xmca] "informants as lames"
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello --
> >>>>
> >>>>We could refer to purpose or consciousness here to distinguish between
> >>>>who's in and who's out. If they're actively conspiring against school
> >>>>culture they're still a part of it, shape it, participate in it -- but
> >>
> >>to
> >>
> >>>>the extent that they are participating in it with a different purpose
> >>
> >>and
> >>
> >>>>different consciousness, they are a separate activity system -- for
> >>
> >>the
> >>
> >>>>purposes of a study of boundaries, that would consistute a boundary --
> >>>>right?
> >>>>
> >>>>Helena WOrthen
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>On Mon, April 17, 2006 9:00 am, bb wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>All this begs the question of what it means to be inside and outside
> >>
> >>the
> >>
> >>>>>community, and conversely, what/where/when are the boundaries of the
> >>>>>community. Who says who's in and who's out?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Are the lads in Willis' study in or out of the school community?
> >>
> >>They
> >>
> >>>>>might
> >>>>>say "out", but in actively conspiring against school culture, do
> >>
> >>they
> >>
> >>>>not
> >>>>
> >>>>>participate in it, shape it, and therefore constitute part of it?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Not intending to make trouble, it just comes naturally when I'm
> >>
> >>puzzled.
> >>
> >>>>>bb
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On Monday 17 April 2006 9:32 am, Andrew Jocuns wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I think Paul Rabinow in his ethnography, Reflections
> >>>>>>on Fieldwork in Morocco, mentions that the first
> >>>>>>person to greet an anthropologist is often an outsider
> >>>>>>in the community. I am not sure if was him or someone
> >>>>>>else who wrote that anthropologists should stay away
> >>>>>>from said person.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>andy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>--- Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I am looking for a reference to the problem of
> >>>>>>>anthropological fieldwork
> >>>>>>>that arises because people who are likely to
> >>>>>>>interact with an outsider to the community are
> >>>>>>>themselves likely to be
> >>>>>>>marginal within their own communities. The phrase
> >>>>>>>that comes to mind is "lames."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Can anyone help?
> >>>>>>>mike
> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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