Lets hold on to those thoughts, Mary. Wertsch goes on in voices of the mind,
to use Bakhtin to overcome the extreme localness of Vygotsky's approach as
he interprets it. What makes all this so complicated from my interpretive
position
is that Bakhtin gets us to issues of class and the larger social order
through literature
to that the sources of evidence used are fantastically different from each
other.
mike
On 1/16/06, Mary K. Bryson <mary.bryson@ubc.ca> wrote:
>
> Well, going back to the text, I find,
>
> "The sign acts as an instrument of psychological activity in a manner
> analogous to the role of a tool in labour. But this analogy like any
> other,
> does not imply the identity of these similar concepts. We should not
> expect
> to find many similarities with tools in the those means of adaptation we
> call signs. What's more, in addition to the similar and common feature
> shared by the two kinds of activity, we see very essential differences."
> 52/3
>
> I read this, yes, "through a glass darkly", as you put it, Mike -- in
> particular, through Wertsch's discussion in Vygotsky and the Social
> Formation of Mind where JW argues that LSV's focus on mediational means
> interpsychological functioning was concerned with dyadic and group
> interactions, and not institutional contexts per se. (Wertsch, 60) if we
> add
> into this mix the notion of "higher mental processes", then paradoxically,
> one finds a distinction that may have a lot more to do with class than
> anything else. If we substitute "artifact", then the capacity to
> distinguish
> tool from sign, from my interpretive site, is about institutional and
> cultural norms and nothing definitive or ahistorical. And so an analysis
> of
> mediation and tools provided by someone like Latour locates the
> objects/artifacts properly in their slippery social and political contexts
> where such distinctions as between tool and sign no longer make much
> sense.
>
> Mary
>
> On 1/16/06 9:12 AM, "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I always interpret this passage as indicating relative orientation, not
> > total separation,
> > Mary. Is that they way you interpret it? In both cases, mediators are
> double
> > sided and must
> > satisfy, so to speak, constraints at both "ends" in order to function. I
> > also find the use
> > of activities in the last sentence confusing and wonder if it does not
> arise
> > from an error in
> > our naive editing of the translation. That is, I would think that action
> > rather than activity would
> > be appropriate.
> >
> > Through a glass darkly.
> > mike
> >
> > On 1/16/06, Mary K. Bryson <mary.bryson@ubc.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 1/15/06 1:20 AM, "Steve Gabosch" <sgabosch@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The
> >>> point LSV is making is that in this respect,
> >>> tools and signs are similar and not
> >>> different.
> >>
> >> "A most essential difference between sign and tool, and the basis for
> the
> >> real divergence of the two lines, is the different ways that they
> orient
> >> human behavior. The tool's function is to serve as the conductor of
> human
> >> influence on the object of activity; it is externally oriented; it must
> >> lead
> >> to changes in objects. It is a means by which human external activity
> is
> >> aimed at mastering, and triumphing over, nature. The sign on the other
> >> hand
> >> changes nothing in the object of a psychological operation. It is a
> means
> >> of
> >> internal activity aimed at mastering oneself; the sign is internally
> >> oriented. These activities are so different from each other that the
> >> nature
> >> of the means they use cannot be the same in both cases."
> >> LSV, Mind in Society, P. 55
> >>
> >>
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