I believe there is a movement to have xmca folks meet at xmca poster
session, but do not know when it is.
Phil-- The issue of development/learning/change is always open for
discussion. Rare is the person who
claims total control over the distinctions and their combinations. I met one
but it was a long time ago and
I forget her name.
mnemosenia?
dementieva?
chloriforma?
all very confusing
mike
On 9/13/05, steve thorne <sthorne@psu.edu> wrote:
>
>
> hi all -- great questions coming out -- very thought-provoking.
>
> in particular, the challenge of inter-activity system analysis is one
> i'm also thinking about. i find it impossible to bound the object of
> analysis to a discrete activity system. however, as this thread
> indicates, the relations among activities across historically
> distinctive systems are polymorphous and tricky. this articulates
> with another problem i'm having -- ascertaining the goal of activity
> from a participant relative vantage point. i'll be presenting on
> these issues at ISCAR and hope to attend sessions that also confront
> these challenges/problems.
>
> btw, are xcma folk attempting to meet at ISCAR?
>
> best,
>
> steve
>
> >No disagreement, there, bb.
> >In perhaps old fashioned language I think you will find the same argument
> in
> >the LCHC article I recommended to Ed.
> > Vis a vis ISCAR, seems like all of us who go should see what gets said
> in
> >this regard.
> >mike
> >
> > On 9/12/05, bb <xmca-whoever@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> To interject, I think we have to be careful about using the "transfer"
> >> when thinking about how one "system" of activity influences another.
> >> Transfer, especially as has been used in disciplines as education and
> >> cognitive science, carries the meaning of something that is durable
> from one
> >> activity to the next., like knowledge in the head. Apart from material
> >> artifacts, that is not what happens in the situations I've studied, and
> even
> >> material aftifacts are questionable, especially those that have a
> primarily
> >> semiotic function. Artifacts that have a primarily semiotic function
> may be
> >> such things as books, art, computers, ... and those that do not have a
> >> primarily semiotic function may be such things as hammers and table
> saws.
> >> Aside, I can't think of anything that is purely one or another. One can
> >> pretty much use a hammer from one situation of building a house to
> another
> >> in a durable way, but one can also take up the hammer to send a threat
> or
> >> message of defiance -- a totally!
> >> different function. There is a sliding scale of material/ideal that
> Mike
> >> has written about in cult. psych. but I prefer to think in terms of
> >> functionality, especially semiotic functionality.
> >>
> >> Artifacts that have a primarily semiotic function, such a university
> >> course evaluation form, function differently in different settings,
> >> sometimes just slightly differently, and often their function in one
> setting
> >> influences their function in another setting and vice-versa. In the
> setting
> >> in which one such form was created, and in which I was a participant,
> the
> >> creation of the form involved such things as the negotiation of
> differences
> >> between art faculty and education faculty about how students
> "demonstrate
> >> their learning", and how the faculty subsequently make decisions
> regarding
> >> the students learning, with disgreements over "grading" vs.
> "assessment".
> >> The decision to use either of these two terms on the form was the start
> of
> >> this negotiation. And then, administration was interested in the
> creation of
> >> a course evaluation form that would unify, and create a basis of
> comparison
> >> for, the evaluaiton of faculty across the many disciplines. But then,
> in the
> >> classroom at the !
> >> end of the semester, student comments on evaluation forms to which I am
> >> privy often indicate their interest in changing the professor's
> teaching
> >> practices -- these students often being experienced and talented k-12
> >> teachers have a good basis for advocating more effective teaching.
> >>
> >> So, how the form was phrased and designed is influencing the students
> >> comments about the quality of courses as we expected -- and it was
> prior
> >> comments that helped influence the decision to revise the form.
> Committee
> >> influenced by classroom and classroom influenced by committee, with
> >> different timescales of influence and influence being highly
> asymmetrical
> >> while also mutual. In short, that's how I think of artifacts and
> "transfer",
> > > in which I question just how much of the artifact is durable from one
> >> setting to the next, while conceding that there does seem to be
> something
> >> that is durable. I don't believe that seeking to clarify "transfer"
> will be
> >> productive in a social-cultural-historical-ecological theory.
> >>
> >> People and ideas are similar while also different than evaluation forms
> >> concerning how they function from one setting to the next, but while
> keeping
> >> this email short, I'd like to end that I also think what is durable
> needs to
> >> be questioned here as well. Privately, I've been using the term
> >> "transgenesis" instead to imply codevelopment, with what is the
> mediation of
> >> codevelopment also to be in a state of functional change, but what the
> heck,
> >> I'll share it at this moment, and see what you think.
> >>
> >> So I am interested in question of formulating theoretically about the
> >> processes of how what happens at one time and place influences that of
> >> another, with shared people and artifacts.
> >>
> >> bb
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ed,
> >> > Your question puts my issue in a somewhat different perspective, one
> >> > that I have not worked on a lot, but it certainly seems relevant. COP
> -
> >> > Community Of Practice - the way I interpret it to connect it with the
> >> > Activity Theory Model, deals mostly with the "division of labor"
> >> > (roles) -- and that is, of course,connected to the "rules" part of
> the
> >> > model. So if you have one division of labor in one activity, which is
> >> > also based on some stated and unstated rules, conventions and
> >> > expectations, then, my question is, how another activity in which the
> >> > rules and division of labor are different, interacts with the first
> one?
> >> > Does it interact? Can it interact? and how?
> >> >
> >> > I have not read Jean Lave's work on transfer. Could you send a
> >> reference?
> >> > Thanks
> >> > Ana
> >> >
> >> > Ed Wall wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Mike
> >> > >
> >> > > There are many ways in which I am somewhat on the border in many of
> >> > > these conversations. As I read what Ana wrote what came to mind was
> >> > > some of the work Jean Lave did on the notion of transfer (within a
> >> > > social and anthropological context). I was wondering how Ana's
> >> > > questions, if they even do, interface with that body of work. Thus,
> it
> >> > > is quite possible I was asking about interfacing between ch/at and
> COP
> >> > > (I don't know what COP is - smile - although I presume it has
> >> > > something to do with social anthropology). I am sure there is a
> >> > > different emphasis, but the phenomena sound somewhat the same. What
> >> > > you say about Vrjo sounds interesting. Are those some relevant
> papers
> >> > > at xcma?
> >> > >
> >> > > Ed
> >> > >
> >> > >> Ed-- I interpret Ana's questionS to involve the issue of transfer
> and
> >> > >> relations between
> >> > >> activities and partipants involvement in those relational
> >> connections.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> This also connects with Yrjo's characterization of 3rd generation
> >> ch/at
> >> > >> research that
> >> > >> focuses on connections between activity systems.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Maybe your question could also be interpreted as a request to
> clarify
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> relations between ch/at
> >> > >> and COP approaches to knowledge acquisition and transfer??
> >> > >> mike
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On 9/11/05, Ed Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> How does your question interface with the work of Jean Lave and
> >> > >>> colleagues? A refinement?
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Ed Wall
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> >I thought this question went to the whole list, but it ended
> just
> >> in
> >> > >>> >Mike's box. Here it is again:
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > My question is the interaction between different activities:
> what
> >> > >>> can be
> >> > >>> > "taken" from one activity to another? (Old question of the
> >> > >>> universals)
> >> > >>> > Also: what can be created only in a combination of several
> >> > >>> activities.
> >> > >>> > This is what I mean: we all participate in more than one
> activity
> >> > >>> all
> >> > >>> > the time. Is it possible to learn something in one activity and
> >> > >>> then use
> >> > >>> > it in another? In other words: what does it mean to "transport"
> a
> >> > >>> > way of
> >> > >>> > acting, behaving, or thinking from one activity to another?
> > > > >>> > And - what is a product only of participating in a certain
> >> > >>> > combination of activities at the same time?
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > In my workshop in Sevilla I will explore interaction between
> the
> >> > >>> > "imaginary" and the "real" -- passing through in and out, and
> the
> >> > >>> > relationships between the two -- and what are the outcomes of
> this
> >> > >>> > relationship.
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > See you in Sevilla
> >> > >>> > Ana
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > Mike Cole wrote:
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > > You have a question about ch/at you might want answered
> during
> >> > >>> > your trip??
> >> > >>> > > A shame Helena could not come, and odd about that symposium.
> Odd
> >> > >>> > about
> >> > >>> > > the whole
> >> > >>> > > setup!
> >> > >>> > >
> >> > >>> > > See you in Sevilla.
> >> > >>> > > mike
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> >_______________________________________________
> >> > >>> >xmca mailing list
> >> > >>> >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > >>> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>> xmca mailing list
> >> > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > >>>
> >> > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > >> xmca mailing list
> >> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > xmca mailing list
> >> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > xmca mailing list
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >_______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Steven L. Thorne
> Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics
> Linguistics and Applied Language Studies
> Associate Director, Center for Language Acquisition
> Associate Director, Center for Advanced Language Proficiency
> Education and Research
> The Pennsylvania State University
> Interact > 814.863.7036 | sthorne@psu.edu |
> http://language.la.psu.edu/~thorne/ | IM: avkrook
>
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