Gene,
I don't think we really differ here much. I grew up in period of hysterical
Anti-Communism, virulent Anti-Unionism, and what can only be called the most
fanatical Americanism. The experience of living in a totalitarian
environment; tapped phones, police surveillance, veiled and not so veiled
threats to loyal friends etc., is an extremely frightening one and for very
good reasons.
I certainly share your evaluation of those who are too "pig-headed" (stupid)
to acquiesce to overwhelming authority and of those who, though refraining
from direct opposition to authoritarianism, support and protect those that
do so. Sadly, experience shows that the heroism of such people is only
recognized after the event, and it makes all the sense in the world to
"knuckle under" and keep a "low profile" if you hope to achieve something
you can enjoy in this life-time or sometimes just to physically survive.
The heoism of the Vygotsky's, Ilyenkov's, and Vavilov's (as well as their
simple intellectual integrity) should be regarded with the highest respect,
but it's neither useful or even interesting to criticize the morality of
those who have neither the intellectual integrity nor the self-respect to
challenge or at least to abstain from participation in the excessive
exercise of power to enforce public conformity.
With highest regards
Victor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eugene Matusov" <ematusov@UDel.Edu>
To: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:31 PM
Subject: RE: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> Dear Vic-
>
> You wrote,
> > I have some reservations regarding Valsiner's description of the
> > "insensitivity" of Leontiev and Luria. It requires much more than
normal
> > courage to oppose an oppressive regime. Let he who is innocent etc.
etc.
>
> I do not want to trivialize the issue of historical responsibility but
> Vygotsky (and many others) never did "weird" and "politically insensitive"
> things like what Luria and Leontiev (L&L) did. Mike made a good point that
> L&L started working on their "lie/loyalty detector" before Stalin came to
> power (in the second part of 1929) - which is true (although they
continued
> working on long after - through the 1970s, as I've heard). However, the
> "red" terror was going on throughout the 1920s in the USSR although, of
> course, with less vigilance than later. Remember that Bakhtin and his
> friends were arrested before Stalin's consolidation of power in fall of
> 1929. People were arrested and "disappeared" throughout 1920s.
>
> By the way, some of Vygotsky's students and colleagues (e.g., Kolbanovsky)
> publicly tried to protect him and his name (after Vygotsky's death) and
did
> not turn away (against) him (unlike L&L).
>
> I do not know what I would do if I live then and there but I want to
> recognize people like Vygotsky and Kolbanovsky. I admire them for their
> bravery, civil responsibility, political-moral intelligence, and honesty.
> Sometimes I thought that Vygotsky was pretty stupid if not suicidal but
not
> attending to the political situation. Vygotsky made many political
> "mistakes" (including his move from Moscow to Kharkov in the early 1930s
> that was literally "clean up" by NKVD in 1937) that would be fatal in the
> coming Stalinist purges if he didn't die so early. Vygotsky was "stupid"
if
> the highest value of his life was his survival but probably it was not...
>
> What do you think?
>
> Eugene
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Oudeyis [mailto:victor@kfar-hanassi.org.il]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:44 PM
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: Re: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> >
> > Gene,
> >
> > This comes as no great surprise. This was the very same regime that
> > persecuted Vavilov and made Lysenko a Soviet hero.
> >
> > In my view Vygotsky was as thoroughly a Marxist as Ilyenkov and a far
more
> > consistent Historical Materialist than his students; Leontiev, Luria,
> > Davydov etc. In fact, his theoretical and practical accomplishments are
> > among the best examples of creative scientific work explicitly linked to
> > materialist dialectics.
> >
> > By the way, some recent conversations with an agricultural advisor late
of
> > the Ukraine suggests that most kolkhoz presidents were strictly
political
> > appointees who were especially proficient at making out false reports,
> > giving special favors to their superiors and getting drunk for most of
the
> > day! I suspect that V&L were particularly circumspect in their
> description
> > of the kolkhoz president as "having difficulties with abstract
thinking!"
> >
> > I have some reservations regarding Valsiner's description of the
> > "insensitivity" of Leontiev and Luria. It requires much more than
normal
> > courage to oppose an oppressive regime. Let he who is innocent etc.
etc.
> > ....
> >
> > Regards,
> > Victor
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Eugene Matusov" <ematusov@UDel.Edu>
> > To: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 7:07 PM
> > Subject: RE: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> >
> >
> > > Dear Ana-
> > >
> > > Sorry for the delay - I was swamped with work when I cam back from San
> > Diego
> > > (AERA).
> > >
> > > You asked,
> > > > > I think a discussion between psychological tools mediating higher
> > > psychological functions
> > > > and material tools meditating subject-object relations can
> > interesting...
> > >
> > > My study of this question led me to the following summary of Stalinist
> > > critique of Vygotsky-Luria:
> > > 1) Lack of VL's focus on class struggle as the explanation of diverse
> > > psychological phenomena.
> > > 2) Lack of VL's focus on the Marxist notion of labor. Specifically
> > Vygotsky
> > > was accused for replacing the Marxist notion of labor with his notion
of
> > > tools.
> > > 3) Not appreciation of "upraising new Soviet man" in their Central
Asia
> > > studies: how come the kolkhoz president - a good example of "new
Soviet
> > man"
> > > - did not have abstract thinking?!
> > > 4) VL's insensitivities of calling formerly oppressed national
> minorities
> > > "primitives".
> > > 5) VL's non-Marxist understanding of the notion of "culture" based on
> > > Durkheim and Levy-Bruhl's sociological and anthropological ideas like
> > tools,
> > > practices, rituals, collectives rather on labor, surplus, means of
> > > productions, productive relations, class, and so on.
> > >
> > > Read for more in (maybe they have more)
> > > Veer, R. v. d., & Valsiner, J. (1991). Understanding Vygotsky: A quest
> for
> > > synthesis. Oxford, UK: Blackwell (pp. 253- 255; 374-389)
> > >
> > > By the way, on pages 245-246, Veer and Valsiner discussed how Luria
and
> > > Leotniev were politically "insensitive" praising Stalinist
> > collectivization
> > > (about 30 millions were killed) and developing "lie/loyalty detectors"
> for
> > > Soviet secret police in the late 20s and 30s. Also, VV report about
> Luria
> > > weird behavior of keeping his close friend's brain in an alcohol jar
for
> > > further study in his office (I've hear about that in Russia but I
never
> > read
> > > about that). Br-r-r-r! Weird times produce weird people!
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Eugene
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: ana@zmajcenter.org [mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org]
> > > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 11:54 AM
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> > > >
> > > > Dear Eugene and Steve,
> > > >
> > > > I also see now far better what went on. I was reacting mostly to
what
> I
> > > perceived a negative
> > > > tone, primarily set by the article's title.
> > > >
> > > > The substance of their article is far more complex and choke filled
> with
> > > points that need to
> > > > be carefully examined.
> > > > Steve, thank's for clearing that up so carefully.
> > > >
> > > > Eugene, I know that Vygotsky and Luria were criticized by the
> Stalinist
> > > regime, but I don't
> > > > know exactly what was the critique aimed at preciselly. Can you tell
> > us??
> > > What did the
> > > > Stalinist regime "find wrong" with Vygotsky/Luria's work?
> > > >
> > > > Ana
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Eugene Matusov [mailto:ematusov@udel.edu]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 01:06 PM
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > Subject: Re: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Ana--
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, after reading Steve's analysis, I see where you might come
> from.
> > I
> > > agree with Steve
> > > > and you that the title of the critque is unnecessary sarcastic that
> > indeed
> > > communicates
> > > > negativity and agressivity.
> > > > >
> > > > > As to to the issue of "upbrining new Soveit men", I'm not sure how
> > much
> > > Vygotsky and
> > > > Luria committed to this political agenda if at all (I'd like to hear
> > from
> > > Mike what was cut
> > > > from Luria's book). I could not find any place in Vygotsky-Luria
work
> > > suggesting this
> > > > political agenda. It is important to remember, that Stalinist
> propaganda
> > > machine severely
> > > > criticized Luria-Vygotsky study. Someone could use their study for
> this
> > > politcal purpose,
> > > > but nobody seemed to do.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think a discussion between psychological tools mediating higher
> > > psychological functions
> > > > and material tools meditating subject-object relations can
> > interesting...
> > > > >
> > > > > Eugene
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Ana
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 12:34 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Eugene,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you a lot for the careful reading. I must admit that I did
> not
> > > read their text so
> > > > carefully and that I reacted more to what seemed to me a s a very
> > negative
> > > tone. The reason
> > > > I "heard" their tone as negative was maybe subjective, or maybe I
was
> > very
> > > tired from the
> > > > trip to the conference... I also brought only one point into the
> picture
> > > -- and that was the way
> > > > how to characterize Vygotky/Luria's research in Uzbekistan and
> > Khirgizia.
> > > I absolutely
> > > > agree with Margaret and Carol that the
> > > > >
> > > > > the study was a golden opportunity
> > > > > to test the long-standing and widespread debate among
> > > > > ethnopsychologists, sociologists, and others as to whether
> > categories
> > > > > of thinking are universal (the Gestalt view) or whether
> > > > > primitive and advanced technological cultures produced different
> > > > > levels of intellectual development (see Luria, 1979; van
> > > > > der Veer & Valsiner, 1991).
> > > > >
> > > > > But at the time -- I thought that although this indeed was a
> golden
> > > opportunity to study
> > > > the change in the intellectual development, it still was a part of
the
> > > Soviet plan to create a
> > > > "new citizen".
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, I am very glad that when you found out that I was not
> right,
> > > you also explicitly
> > > > said that you still love me. It makes it so much easier to
reexamine
> my
> > > thoughts and say --
> > > > oops!! I was wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > In fact -- Margaret's and Carol's article have some very
> interesting
> > > points. One of them
> > > > the "fact" that it was not Vygotsky who introduced "activity
theory",
> > but
> > > it were
> > > > > "Vygotsky's disciples [who]
> > > > > turned his theory into an activity theory after his death,
> replacing
> > > > > the psychological tool as a mediator between objects of
> > > > > action and mental functions with material activity as the
> mediator,
> > > > > and careless scholars attribute activity theory to Vygotsky."
> > > > >
> > > > > To me it would be interesting to discuss whether people (on this
> > list)
> > > today see
> > > > "activity" as a mediator between "subject" and "object". Or is
> > "activity"
> > > something else?
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think??
> > > > >
> > > > > Ana
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Eugene Matusov wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Ana and everybody-
> > > > >
> > > > > I read/reread both articles and found that I agree with much of
> > Margaret
> > > > > Gredler and Carol Shields' criticism of Michael Glassman. Here are
> > > points of
> > > > > my agreement with Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields (just from
> their
> > > first
> > > > > page):
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Michael Glassman wrote, "Dewey would applaud Vygotsky's
emphasis
> on
> > > > > everyday culture
> > > > > as the lynchpin of the educational process." (p.4)
> > > > >
> > > > > Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields disagreed, "... contrary to
> > > Glassman's
> > > > > (2001, p. 3) statements, Vygotsky did not advocate bringing
everyday
> > > > > activities into the classroom or the ways that human activity
serves
> > as
> > > an
> > > > > impetus to learning." (p.21)
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields. Unlike Dewey,
> > Vygotsky
> > > was
> > > > > rather critical about everyday culture/activities/concepts. I do
not
> > > know
> > > > > any place in his writings where Vygotsky argued that "everyday
> > culture"
> > > (I'm
> > > > > not sure I know what Michael Glassman meant by this term - I never
> > read
> > > > > about it before, not in Vygotsky definitely) is the lynchpin of
the
> > > > > educational process. Did I miss something in Vygotsky?
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. Michael Glassman wrote, "Vygotsky suggests that it is the
ability
> > to
> > > > > develop cooperative activity through complex social relationships
> that
> > > > > separates mature humans from all other animals (Vygotsky & Luria,
> > > 1993)."
> > > > > (p.5)
> > > > >
> > > > > Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields disagreed, "... neither
Vygotsky
> > and
> > > > > Luria (1930/1993) nor Vygotsky's other writings state that
> cooperative
> > > > > activity separates humans from all other animals as Glassman
(2001,
> p.
> > > 5)
> > > > > asserts. Instead, "the absence of at least the beginnings of
speech
> .
> > .
> > > .
> > > > > the lack of ability to make a sign or to introduce some auxiliary
> > > > > psychological means [in problem solving] . . . draws the line
> between
> > > the
> > > > > ape and the most primitive human being" (Vygotsky & Luria,
> 1930/1993,
> > p.
> > > > > 73). In another work, Vygotsky (1931/1997f) identifies
> "signification,
> > > that
> > > > > is, the creation and use of signs" as the unique human behavior
that
> > > > > differentiates humans from animals (p. 55)." (p. 21)
> > > > >
> > > > > Further in his article, Michael Glassman talked about "tools and
> > > symbols" as
> > > > > being very important for Vygotsky but I agree with Margaret
Gredler
> > and
> > > > > Carol Shields that Michael Glassman's writing is very confusing
and
> > even
> > > > > misleading at times on this issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields wrote, "In addition,
> Glassman's
> > > (2001)
> > > > > assertions that Vygotsky considered tools as "the means for
> specific,
> > > > > culturally approved consequences" (p. 5), believing that "tools
and
> > > symbols
> > > > > are used in the service of culturally defined goals" (p. 6),3 and
> > "free
> > > > > inquiry is . . . eclipsed by culturally significant and
appropriate
> > > inquiry"
> > > > > (p. 6) are inaccurate. Vygotsky did not discuss inquiry, and he
> > > described
> > > > > psychological tools as "the means of which we direct and realize
the
> > > > > psychological operations (e.g., memorizing, comparing, selecting)
> > > necessary
> > > > > for the solution of the problem" (Vygotsky, 1997i, p. 86)." (p.
21)
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, in my view, Margaret and Carol are right.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can go on and on and on... Actually, I could not find place in
> > > Margaret
> > > > > Gredler and Carol Shields' critique of Michael Glassman that I did
> not
> > > > > agree... Did you? Did I miss something?
> > > > >
> > > > > I did not find Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields' tone angry or
> > > aggressive
> > > > > or negative. They disagreed with Michael Glassman about almost
> > > everything (I
> > > > > actually can add more disagreements with Michael). So what? I did
> not
> > > find
> > > > > anything disrespectful in their tone. Did I miss something in
their
> > > tone? (I
> > > > > like to disagree with people, maybe this is why I do not see
> anything
> > > > > offensive in their critical article). Does disagreement mean
> > "negative"?
> > > For
> > > > > me, "negative" means not constructive but I found Margaret Gredler
> and
> > > Carol
> > > > > Shields being very constructive. I feel that Margaret Gredler and
> > Carol
> > > > > Shields are respectful to all community, including Michael
Glassman,
> > by
> > > > > bringing supports for their claims and grounding their claims in
> > > Michael's
> > > > > text. What else are they supposed to write? In this message, for
> > > example, I
> > > > > disagree with Ana, but I do not feel to be negative to her, angry
> with
> > > her,
> > > > > or aggressive to her. I love Ana and respect her a lot and I'd
love
> to
> > > hear
> > > > > what she and the others may say in response even if she and the
> other
> > > people
> > > > > completely disagree with me. I know that I can be wrong, she can
we
> > > wrong,
> > > > > we both can wrong, and so on... But, we work together. I think
that
> > > Michael
> > > > > made an interesting attempt to bring Vygotsky and Dewey together.
He
> > > made
> > > > > his shot but Margaret and Carol (and I) rejected it by providing
> their
> > > > > critique. He may choose to rebuff us and show us wrong - I do not
> know
> > > as
> > > > > Margaret and Carol, but I'll be happy to admit that I'm wrong if
> > Michael
> > > > > brings his convincing counter-arguments. It is not necessarily
> > pleasant
> > > to
> > > > > read a critical review, in which the authors completely disagree
> with
> > > you.
> > > > > But, hey, this is part of our profession: other colleagues can
judge
> > our
> > > > > work as completely right, partially right, or completely wrong. If
> it
> > is
> > > the
> > > > > latter, although it is unpleasant, I do not find anything
negative,
> > > angry,
> > > > > or aggressive in it per se. Again, I may miss something and I'd
like
> > > what
> > > > > other people see that makes Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields'
(and
> > > maybe
> > > > > even my?) tone objectable.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > >
> > > > > Eugene
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: ana@zmajcenter.org [mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org]
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 8:43 AM
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > Subject: Re: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Eugene,
> > > > > I absolutely agree with you. It is dangerous to make conclusions
> based
> > > on
> > > > > little evidence
> > > > > and several quotes. I am not sure what was Glassman's point, but
> to
> > me
> > > it
> > > > > did not seem
> > > > > contradictory to Luria and Vygotsky's research in the the ways
> that
> > a
> > > > > cultural historical
> > > > > change produce changes in psychological processes. The "golden
> > > > > opportunity" to study
> > > > > these processes in a "natural experiment" was, at the same time,
> > > enabled
> > > > > in part by the
> > > > > Stalinist politics of forcefull collectivisation terror. Does
that
> > > mean
> > > > > that you can
> > > > > automatically align the researchers with the Stalinist political
> > > agenda?
> > > > > No.
> > > > > However, I was reactineg more to the tone of their debate than
to
> > the
> > > fine
> > > > > points they were
> > > > > making. On the whole, they did not like Glassman's hypothesis
that
> > > > > Vygotsky's ideas can be
> > > > > related to Dewey's in the way that Glassman did. And they
> criticised
> > > > > different aspects of
> > > > > that comparison in Glassman's work in very forceful language.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ana
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Eugene Matusov [mailto:ematusov@udel.edu]
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 06:06 AM
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > Subject: RE: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Ana-
> > > > >
> > > > > I did not have time to read Gredler and Shields' article (I'm
still
> in
> > > > > San
> > > > > Diego) but the quotes that you nicely put together make me agree
> > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > authors. It seems to me (and I can be wrong) that one of the
> issues
> > is
> > > a
> > > > > POLITICAL Soviet context. The rhetoric about "upbringing the New
> > Soviet
> > > > > person" (ridiculed later by dissidents as "homo Soveticus") was
used
> > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > early 1930s by Stalinist propaganda. It seems to me that
Glassman
> > > > > dangerously aligned Vygotsky and Luria with the Stalinist
propaganda
> > > > > machine. I'm personally much more comfortable with Gredler and
> > Shields'
> > > > > formulation (as presented in your quote) than with Glassman's one.
> > > > > Although
> > > > > it is well-documented (see Rogoff, 1990) that Luria overlooked
the
> > > > > political
> > > > > context of his Uzbekistan experiments (i.e., Stalinist
> > > collectivization
> > > > > terror), there is no evidence that Vygotsky and Luria accepted the
> > > > > Stalinist
> > > > > call for "upbringing the New Soviet person" as Glassman seems to
> > > > > suggest.
> > > > > Knowing Soviet history, Glassman's statements cited below about
> > > Vygotsky
> > > > > and
> > > > > Luria make me VERY uncomfortable. In contrast, I'm very
> comfortable
> > > with
> > > > > Gredler and Shields' statement that
> > > > > Particularly important is that the study was a golden
> > opportunity
> > > > > to test the long-standing and widespread debate among
> > > > > ethnopsychologists, sociologists, and others as to whether
> categories
> > > > > of thinking are universal (the Gestalt view) or whether
> > > > > primitive and advanced technological cultures produced different
> > > > > levels of intellectual development (see Luria, 1979; van
> > > > > der Veer & Valsiner, 1991).
> > > > > Sorry if my comments do not make sense because I did not
> read
> > > the
> > > > > articles
> > > > > but react only to the short quotes.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > >
> > > > > Eugene
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Ana [mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 3:54 PM
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > Subject: Re: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter, Bill
> > > > >
> > > > > I went and read the article. One thing is that it is definitively
> > > > > writen
> > > > > in a very negative tone, almost angry and very agressive.
> > > > > The other thing is that they give a lot of referrences one would
> have
> > > > > to
> > > > > check in order to figure out if they have a point they claim to
> > have.
> > > > > However, in one instance at least, I could see that they don't
seem
> to
> > > > > understand exactly what they are criticizing. This is the case of
> the
> > > > > famous Luria/Vygtsky research on changes introduced by soviet
> literacy
> > > > > programs. Here is a quote from their article
> > > > >
> > > > > ****
> > > > > Glassman (2001, p. 6) cites Vygotsky and Luria (1930/1993) as
> > > > > the source for his statements that (a) Vygotsky would agree with
> > > > > Dewey that society has "a vested interest in the development and
> > > > > maintenance of these [psychological] tools" and (b) Vygotsky
> > > > > wanted "to use the educational process to teach new members
> > > > > of the social community how to 'use' important, culturally
developed
> > > > > tools in an effective manner (a top-down/determinate
> > > > > approach)." In contrast, Vygotsky and Luria (1930/1993) neither
> > > > > stated nor alluded to such an agenda. The text, which addresses
> > > > > cognitive development, discusses important landmarks
> > > > > in the three different paths that account for human behavior-
> > > > > evolutionary (phylogenetic), historical, and ontogenetic (p. 36).
> > > > > For example, numeric operations and other early psychological
> > > > > tools transformed the memory and thinking of primitive peoples.
> > > > > Also discussed were the authors' experiments on the development
> > > > > of children's cognitive processes and the cognitive development
> > > > > of mentally retarded, physically impaired, and gifted
> > > > > children.
> > > > > Glassman (2001) then states that the cross-cultural research of
> > > > > Luria and Vygotsky "hypothesized that the introduction of new
> > > > > tools by a strong social organization (i.e., the Soviet Union)
> > > > > would lead to the development of a 'new' type of citizen" (p. 6).
> > > > > Instead, the hypothesis the researchers actually tested was that
> > > > > "the structure of psychological processes changes as a function of
> > > > > history; consciousness does not have a constant, unchanging
> > > > > structure" [italics added] (Luria, 1971, p. 160). More specifi-
> > > > > cally, Luria (1976) clearly stated,
> > > > > We hypothesized that people with a primarily graphic/functional
> > > > > reflection of reality would show a different mental process from
> > > > > people with a system of predominantly abstract, verbal, and
logical
> > > > > approach to reality. (p. 18)
> > > > > Particularly important is that the study was a golden opportunity
> > > > > to test the long-standing and widespread debate among
> > > > > ethnopsychologists, sociologists, and others as to whether
> categories
> > > > > of thinking are universal (the Gestalt view) or whether
> > > > > primitive and advanced technological cultures produced different
> > > > > levels of intellectual development (see Luria, 1979; van
> > > > > der Veer & Valsiner, 1991).5 Conducted in the remote parts of
> > > > > the Soviet Union (villages in Uzbekistan and Kirghizia) that
> > > > > were undergoing rapid socioeconomic change, the study included
> > > > > two isolated and illiterate groups and three groups with
> > > > > varying literacy levels and some exposure to technological
> > > > > change. The 600 interview protocols (van der Veer & Valsiner,
> > > > > 1991, p. 248) indicated that practical activity and concrete
> > > > > situations
> > > > > dominated the perception, classification, and reasoning
> > > > > skills of the nonliterate subjects whereas the others engaged
> > > > > in categorical, abstract thinking (Luria, 1976, pp. 117-134;
> > > > > ***
> > > > > It seems to me that what they criticize is something that is not
at
> > > > > all
> > > > > opposed to what they say "researchers actually tested [...]".
And,
> > > > > that
> > > > > was their hypothesis that:
> > > > > "the structure of psychological processes changes as a function of
> > > > > history; consciousness does not have a constant, unchanging
> > > > > structure" .
> > > > >
> > > > > Either they don't understand that the Soviet Imposed literacy
> program
> > > > > is
> > > > > at the same time a historical, social process" or I don't know
> what
> > > > > they
> > > > > want to say.
> > > > >
> > > > > That is my first impression. No doubt that the article was written
> in
> > > > > a
> > > > > hostile tone, and I am surprised that it was published as such
in
> > the
> > > > > educatinal researcher. Good game is a game where we all build upon
> > > > > each
> > > > > other's thinking and research instead of bashing each other. If
> they
> > > > > had
> > > > > very important fine points about the differences between Dewey
and
> > > > > Vygotsky, why not just point that out in a friendly manner??
> > > > >
> > > > > And of course, I agree with Bill: No one's thinking ought to
become
> a
> > > > > dogma - Einsten's, Vygotsky's or anyone elses. The point is to
keep
> > > > > moving ahead.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ana
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill Barowy wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Wow. Thanks Peter for provoking my interest in this
> article.
> > I
> > > had
> > > > > noted it
> > > > > when it arrived, but I'll make sure to read it asap.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have to say that i am uncomfortable with the kind of thinking
and
> > > > > writing
> > > > > that you described. For example, while Vygotsky could be
held
> > as
> > > the
> > > > > kind of
> > > > > genius Einstein was, one does not find folks saying so much
> they
> > > know
> > > > > what
> > > > > Einstein "said and believed" to the condescension of others.
> > > Quite
> > > > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > contrary, it is expected to go beyond Einstein in our
> > > understanding
> > > > > -- he
> > > > > may
> > > > > have been a genius, but he was still only a human. And
there
> > are
> > > now
> > > > > better
> > > > > reformulations of Einstein's core ideas than what Einstein
> > > developed.
> > > > > We
> > > > > can
> > > > > and do still admire Einstein for his contributions.
> > > > >
> > > > > But so, is this kind of publication the result of making Vygotsky
> > > > > into
> > > > > such an
> > > > > untouchable icon? Are we suffering the slings and arrows of
a
> > > > > codeveloping
> > > > > hegemonic discourse that attribute legitimacy more to
> > replicating
> > > > > exactly
> > > > > an
> > > > > individual's ideas than to the problems and the work? If
so,
> it
> > > is
> > > > > such
> > > > > a
> > > > > strange and ironic twist for activity theory research.
> > > > >
> > > > > bb
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sat May 01 2004 - 01:00:07 PDT