Gene,
Your tripartate division of space comes from Lefebvre, Henri(1974) The
Production of Space , translated by Donald Nicholson-Smith, Basil Blackwell,
Oxford, 1991. Interesting book though complex and hard to pin down.
Lefebvre is a Marxist, though a very singular one. Among the most peculiar
and in my view his least successful elements of his theory is an attempt to
treat space and time as objects.
Regards,
Victor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eugene Matusov" <ematusov@udel.edu>
To: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 12:28 AM
Subject: RE: false consciousness: real and virtual worlds: third space
> Dear Iraj and everybody-
>
> Iraj, I sense that we use the term "space" differently which is good
because
> it appears I can learn something new from you. My use of "first space",
> "second space" and "third space" comes from architecture. I do not have
> reference with me of who initiated this terminology in architecture
> (knowledgeable people, please help me!) but the "first space" is referred
to
> "home" (warm, cozy personal dwelling), the "second space" is referred to
> official (cold), formal public places like office or other
institutionalized
> places, and the "third space" is referred to personalized and
"friendalized"
> public places (Starbucks cafes want to be such "third space" see
> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/05/1031115910533.html).
>
> Iraj, can you elaborate how Lefebvre, Soja, Bha Bha, Spivak, bel hooks,
and
> Gutierrez use their space terminology and what they mean by that (please
> give examples if possible)?
>
> My "il'enkovized" mind has difficulty to grasp the following paragraph,
> > yes, the issue, according to Lefebvre and Soja, becomes reality (real in
> > space) AND virtuality (imagined in space). The former being what we
> > experience by our senses outside of our bodies (first space) and the
> latter
> > being what we conceive of that experience in our minds (second space),
> > regardless of any judgement about them being 'real or false.'
>
> because experiences given us in our senses are also "idealized", according
> to Il'enkov (but also many other philosophers). For Il'enkov "ideal" does
> not occupy any space: it is everywhere. We perceive the world "idealized".
> We are dealing with "idealized" world and we do not need any other world
(we
> are not "trapped"). "Idealization" is not bad subjectivity distorting
> perception of material world of "the real reality" or "the
world-out-there"
> but rather a product of human activities and practices embedded in social
> relations. I guess, from Il'enkov's perspective, it is possible to talk
> about ideal and material aspects of the world but definitely not as
> "spaces". Did I miss something?
>
> Again something like
>
> > All these authors used 'third space' as a way out of a trapped set of
> > practices (first space) and consciousnesses (second space). third space
is
> > about transformation and change in what exists--actual and virtual.
>
> does not fit into my "il'enkovized" mind. But I'll try, Iraj, - I promise.
>
> Please help,
>
> Eugene
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: IRAJ IMAM [mailto:iimam@cal-research.org]
> > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 7:13 PM
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: false consciousness: real and virtual worlds: third space
> >
> > Eugene:
> >
> > 'According to Il'enkov, there is not "real" and "virtual" ...
> consciousness
> > because by its very nature consciousness is always virtual ...'
> >
> > Lefebvre and Soja would agree and that is 'second spaces' to them. Those
> > include all forms of mental activities, dreams, consciousness ('false'
or
> > otherwise), knowledges, ways of seeing and/or projecting,
> > propaganda/spin/ad, etc.
> >
> >
> > '(Modern philosopher Zizek (sp?) recently made a similar statement about
> > "virtual sex" on the Internet arguing that any sex has its virtual
> aspect).'
> >
> >
> > Who would doubt that --perhaps women experience a more intense
virtuality
> by
> > closing their eyes?!
> >
> > 'Thus, the issue is not "virtuality" versus "reality". '
> >
> > yes, the issue, according to Lefebvre and Soja, becomes reality (real in
> > space) AND virtuality (imagined in space). The former being what we
> > experience by our senses outside of our bodies (first space) and the
> latter
> > being what we conceive of that experience in our minds (second space),
> > regardless of any judgement about them being 'real or false.'
> >
> > 'I think what makes consciousness "false consciousness" is not the
nature
> of
> > the consciousness itself (e.g., "virtual" vs. "real" artifacts) or the
> > nature of underlining experiences but rather the nature of social
> relations
> > and practices in which the consciousness is embedded in (situated) and
> > emerge from.'
> >
> > And this brings the notion of 'third space' (or lived space, Lefebvre),
by
> > Soja, Bha Bha, Spivak, bel hooks, and GUTIÉRREZ (thanks Mike for the
> > reference). If I understand Eugene correctly, the assumption is that
> > consciousness emerges from ' the nature of social relations and
practices
> in
> > which the consciousness is embedded.' I think these above authors would
> > agree with that assumption.
> >
> > They continue to ask 'so what?' what are we going to do about it? (eg,
> these
> > people within these sets of social relations are trapped into these sets
> of
> > consciousnesses). Here is where 'third space' becomes of a
> > response--production of new space, both actual and virtual in a new
> > activity. That is a new practice (virtual and actual) which in turn
allows
> > for a new consciousness, or learning, to emerge from those activities.
> >
> > All these authors used 'third space' as a way out of a trapped set of
> > practices (first space) and consciousnesses (second space). third space
is
> > about transformation and change in what exists--actual and virtual. In
> > Lefebvre and Soja, third space is about production of new
spaces --actual
> > and virtual--through new activity (lived space). It is close to what
> Deleuze
> > called 'line of flight.'
> >
> > iraj
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Jan 01 2004 - 01:00:10 PST