I think we need to remember the ZPD was only mentioned 3 or 4 times in
all of the collected works. Interestingly it was coined by an american
behaviorist and has been interpreted / re-interpreted re-re-intepreted
by the american context since.
I do think Tudge is right on that as a concept it receives its
validation from the theory as a whole. The ZPD is not VYGOTSKYian
examined outside of this context.
The Marxian context is indeed an interesting one. I know in transcribing
Seve's work his chapter on capacity is very consistant with the notion
of ZPD.
http://marxists.org/archive/seve/works/1974/ch4/4.1.htm
So, we have two theorists who coming from a marxist foundation, and
trying to construct a marxist psychology, were led to similar concepts.
N
Bill Barowy wrote:
> Huong,
>
> It's good you ask so I can try to figure this out better for myself.
>
> With Mike's caution taken seriously, I'd not like to proceed directly to
> conclusions without some others commenting. What i was doing was
> interpreting the Tudge excerpt, with my own understanding of Vygotsky's
> method. Further, I've been influenced by Bruner's points that the zoped has
> roots in Marxist culture, especially involving 1) a division of labor and 2)
> a "sharing" of consciousness. The first of Bruner's points seems to come
> right close to the estrangement paper we are supposed to be reading. I have
> not found direct support for Bruner's first point in the "primary (put
> loosely because they are translated, edited) texts", although the division of
> labor shows up explicitly in Engestrom's triangular model, which itself
> definitely draws upon Marxist principles.
>
> I think, consistent with collectivist orientation, it is difficult to
> attribute things directly to Vygotsky, because there has been so much
> interpretation -- but just as importantly, even the most devoted of Vygotsky
> scholars admit his work was unfinished. So perhaps the theory is well framed
> as a collective effort that includes a diversity of cultural/historical
> circumstances outside of early 1900s Russia. Circumstances like 1960s thru
> 1980's Finland and California, for example. So I don't get too hung up if I
> don't adhere rigidly to what the prime author wrote.
>
> See here for Agre's account of some things:
> http://www.tao.ca/writing/archives/rre/0254.html
>
> Having tried not to paint the question into a corner, what comes to mind is
> not that "more" of a teacher's role is required but that the teacher takes on
> a qualitatively different role (than one would engage in by just following
> some curriculum guidelines). That role is engaging in a joint effort with
> the child to advance the child's development. It is a collective and
> effortful undertaking. For this to be different, however, is it not also
> necessary to include the psychological orientation of the adult -- because
> learning-and-teaching with curriculum and with children is effortful and
> collective even if the teacher has not groked the theory?
>
> Aside, zopedalism is not inconsistent with constructivism in the following
> narrow sense -- that constructivism accounts for the effort of the child in
> conceptualizing the world. But with the zoped there is an interal and
> effortful role for the adult, and as Mike aptly (as is expected) points out,
> there is also integrally the role of mediation/culture in their interactions.
>
> bb
>
>
> On Tuesday 17 December 2002 06:36 pm, lehuon@scs.vuw.ac.nz wrote to all of us:
>
>>Thank you Bill.
>>So, Vygotsky's approach requires more of teacher's role than any
>>instructional technique?
>>Huong
>>
>>---- Original Message ----
>>From: wbarowy@attbi.com
>>To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>Subject: Re: Hello
>>Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:30:01 -0500
>>
>>
>>>I'd like to add that context here is a little more than what, when
>>>and where.
>>>One key phrase from Tudge is how the "theory as a whole" need be
>>>taken into
>>>account. In Tudge's statement, children's *interaction* is also
>>>referenced
>>>and this is an essential element that moves away from an
>>>environmental
>>>determinism. Vygotsky's approach is developmental-experimental, and
>>>the
>>>context includes the orientation of the adult as teacher/researcher
>>>who
>>>accounts for the actions of the children with flexibility into her
>>>own
>>>actions. The theory, as a whole, is part of the psychological
>>>orientation of
>>>the teacher, which makes a world of mediational difference from a
>>>simple
>>>application of systematic instruction e.g. application of curriculum
>>>materials.
>>>
>>>And if the Vygotsky scholars disagree with this, it is sure someone
>>>will speak
>>>up.
>>>
>>>
>>>bb
>>>
>>>On Tuesday 17 December 2002 03:41 pm, lehuon@scs.vuw.ac.nz wrote to
>>>
>>>all of us:
>>>
>>>>Hello,
>>>>Could you please help me with the word CONTEXT in the following
>>>>quotation:
>>>>"In fact, failure to see the connections between the zone and the
>>>>theory as a whole means that it is difficult to differentiate
>>>>Vygotsky's concept from any instructional technique that
>>>>systematically leads children, with the help of an adult, though a
>>>>number of steps in the process of learning some set of skills. The
>>>>difference for Vygotsky is that the CONTEXT in which the
>>>
>>>interaction
>>>
>>>
>>>>occurs is of crucial importance." (Tudge 1990: 156)
>>>>Thank you.
>>>>Huong
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>VUW Student Portal - http://www.studentvuw.ac.nz
>>
>>VUW Student Portal - http://www.studentvuw.ac.nz
>
>
>
-- “There is no hope of finding the sources of free action in the lofty realms of the mind or in the depths of the brain. The idealist approach of the phenomenologists is as hopeless as the positive approach of the naturalists. To discover the sources of free action it is necessary to go outside the limits of the organism, not into the intimate sphere of the mind, but into the objective forms of social life; it is necessary to seek the sources of human consciousness and freedom in the social history of humanity. To find the soul it is necessary to lose it". A.R LuriaNate vygotsky@charter.net http://webpages.charter.net/schmolze1/
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