Nate,
I keep forgetting to hit "reply all" when replying to your messages so the
following, to which you have responded, never got to the list to begin with.
I'm putting it back up.
Will reply to your reply in a separate message.
Paul H. Dillon
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul H.Dillon <illonph@pacbell.net>
To: <vygotsky@home.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: relevance to LBE
> Nate,
>
> Aren't there several possibilities?
>
> Wouldn't historically new have to be relevant to a given
> collectivity/subject?. Even an activity which is absolutely new from the
> universal perspective begins with a particular group. Often the initial
> experiences provide lessons/understandings that are reflected back into
the
> activity changing the process of its occurrence for other groups
(subjects).
>
> I can think of at least two possibilities:
>
> 1. The emergence sui generis of an activity within a group, sort of an
> internally unfolding history; independent development.
>
> 2. Transfer of the activity from an external subject who already
> possesses the practice.
>
> I think that we normally confront situations of the latter kind which is
not
> to say that each collectivity/subject doesn't have to effectively recreate
> the experience as a sui generis emergence for it to take root.
>
>
> This brings us to the issue concerning the degree to which the emergence
of
> an activity that transforms/destroys the group in which it it takes root
and
> I think the transition from Learning 2 to Learning 3 in Bateson generally
> implied some kind of ego death where the ego was related to identities
> established in relation to the Learning 2 patterns in or for which the
> double-binds arose..
>
>
> Paul H. Dillon
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nate Schmolze <vygotsky@home.com>
> To: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 6:16 AM
> Subject: Re: relevance to LBE
>
>
> >
> > How is it "historically new"? It would seem a crieria for YE
> > would not just be "new" for the subject but genuinely
> > "historically new" activities.
> >
> > If for example, those involved created a "new" type of an
> > activity to deal with those double binds that would appear to
> > meet the criteria, but am unclear how something just personally
> > new would qualify.
> >
> > Nate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 4/28/01 1:15:59 PM, "Paul H.Dillon" <illonph@pacbell.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Diane,
> > >
> > >My message concerning my experiences with the small project up
> > here
> > >certainly did redirect the discussion onto the specific
> > situation of the
> > >ZPD. Why people don't take the question of contradictions
> > that I presented
> > >in that example into the LBE direction is something I have no
> > control over.
> > >I think it is very relevant here and in particular since YE
> > wrote in Ch. 3:
> > >
> > >"A provisional reformulation of the zone of proximal
> > development is now
> > >possible: It is the distance between the everyday actions of
> > the individuals
> > >and the historically new form of the societal activity that
> > can be
> > >collectively generated as a solution to the double bind
> > potentially embedded
> > >in everyday actions." (174)
> > >
> > >What I was pointing to in that example had to do precisely
> > with how that
> > >double-bind first comes to be an issue for those kids (and
> > thereby a
> > >potential contradiction for generating transformation) since
> > their everyday
> > >actions don't include participation in the "new form of the
> > societal
> > >activity". As the girl told me, "I don't have nothin' to do
> > with computer
> > >stuff." And there is an additional Catch-22 (if not exactly a
> > double bind)
> > >insofar as participation in the new form of societal activity
> > presupposes a
> > >certain skills.
> > >
> > >I can't help it if people want to continue to look at the hole
> > and not the
> > >donut.
> > >
> > >Paul H. Dillon
> > >
> > >"hmmmmmm, donuts" - Homer Simpson
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Why were all the dogs kicked out of the whitehouse?
> > They kept peeing on the Bushes.
> > -Enlightened Second Grader -
> >
> >
>
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