[Xmca-l] Re: Translations - Shona and Russian

[HENRY SHONERD]

David,
This is very good dialog and makes me glad to have learned enough of linguistics to make sense of it. I hope those of us who have been called linguists aren’t perceived as insufferable pedants, hell-bent on silencing the masses. It ain’t true! I was a little worried about what you did with Google Translate until you described to David the dues you have paid learning written, academic Russian. It makes your work credible and essential, and you have native speakers/writers looking over your shoulder. I agree with you that no culture is primitive in their language, because IMHO meaning potential in any culture is infinite.
Henry


> On Nov 30, 2020, at 3:13 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Many thanks to Zaza, whose translation of Tuku's song I'll be taking into my class on Ethics, Emotions, and Education tonight. I think you can see from her translation where you can go wrong with Google Translate, which is, after all, just a way of linking up bits of texts that have been previously translated by humans. Using the Google Translate function for Shona, I thought the song referred to "raped by your roomate". Zaza says it means a husband, which is expressed as the payer of bride price. At first I thought this was an accident of history, similar to the fact that our word "husband" means someone who looks after pigs, but of course if you listen to Tuku's song  Haasati Aziva you can see that if it is an accident of history it's a very recent one that still casts a shadow. As Mary said--this is the stuff of a pandemic: systemic, institutionalized, and as a result blithe, indifferent and unaccountable power. As with AIDS, so too with Covid 19.
> 
> Anthony--I said I don't speak Russian. I started studying in 2005 (after a short exchange with Mike) and took four years of formal classes in the language, six to eight hours a week. I have been spending at least eight hours a week reading Russian ever since. So when I look at a paragraph of Vygotsky in Russian I don't usually see any words that I don't recognize. When I do, I do what any Russian would do and look them up. Google Translate works as a bilingual dictionary only the entries are larger than the word and smaller than the clause. But human translators function more like thesauruses, where the entries are not wordings but meanings. For that reason I tend to use "Reverso", which gives whole paragraphs from the data base so you can see the context. . 
> 
> When I meet Nikolai or Anna, I find it impossible to use more than a few well-known phrases in Russian (mostly agreeable things like "Of course" and "You're right!", which is quite unlike my normal way of thinking...). So I think I do not speak Russian, although I have some reading knowledge of it. Operationally what that means is that when I publish a translation, I need a native speaker looking over my shoulder. Since I'm mostly translating into Korean, I actually need two, and I am fortunate that I was born with two shoulders, and even more fortunate that I have Dr. Kim Yongho, who is better than I am in both languages. (But Yongho learned his Russian from Rosetta Stone!)
> 
> I have no objection to disentangling threads, but I don't really agree with Antti (who, unless I am quite mistaken, also speaks a language that utterly lacks articles) that this all belongs on a separate thread. To me, anyway, the relevant points are three.
> 
> a) Racism isn't an interpersonal matter, and still less is it an intra-personal one: it's social, cultural, historical, material. That's why we say it is systemic. And if it's systemic, it is part of the way we look at other languages. Since Lewontin demonstrated the non-viability of race as a unit of analysis for human communities, language has become a stand in for race, and views about language are a stand-in for views about race. That was, after all, where Arturo was looking. 
> 
> b) One way that views about language have become a stand-in for views about race is that languages which lack articles are seen as deviant from some universal grammar and hence defective in some way. My colleague's "article-drop" parameter is actually part of a pattern of thinking that has been part of mainstream linguistics since the late fifties and early sixties, and is exemplified in the "Principles and Parameters" model of Universal Grammar. Chomsky argued that languages like Italian which do not require grammatical subjects as English does must have a setting that permits the omission of this universally obligatory element. This is nonsense. Italian does not drop pronouns; there's really no "pro" there to drop. We do not, after all, go around saying that English is a Korean-honorific-drop-language. Those who assume that languages are genetically hard-wired (the LAD or the magical gene that according to Chomsky created the capacity for human thought or the supposed correlation between mutations in mitochondrial DNA and languages that was alleged by Cavalli-Sforza) are making assumptions that are really not that different from assumptions previously made about the cranial capacity of lesser breeds without the law.
> 
> c) Vygotsky was as much a man of his time as we are of our own. Some writers (c.f. Aaro Toomela on the Cultural Praxis site recently) have argued that Vygotsky believed in "primitive languages", e.g. the Bantu languages, to which Shona belongs. As Zaza makes abundantly clear, Shona is not primitive by any conceivable standard, and I have seen no convincing evidence that Vygotsky ever made this assumption (he did quote missionaries who clearly did make the assumption, but he is quite scathing about them on precisely this point). Certainly the idea that some languages have only the "indicative" or the "nominating" function but not the "signifying" function is not a Vygotskyan one: a language that cannot signify is not a human language, and any language that can signify can signify a concept. Languages can vary according to the meanings that they actually do express, just as registers within a language do. But human meaning potential is, if not infinite (we will not be around forever), at least undetermined and probably indeterminate.
> 
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
> 
> New Book with Nikolai Veresov
> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology
> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov
> See free downloadable pdf at:
> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!TiO2m6fI0Yj4kWASI3uw4hSBXD1DvtQD2cEma9sMsEIvof_iEKnEx-yeTd5nRYdAylXaKQ$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!SzpiY8z2Z24lFuzO5PXhgoncACl4IAtIJzsBkUHd_y6FoP3gNy59eIVZe7xe6UKdUaMciw$>
> 
> Forthcoming in 2020:
> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age.
> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 5:08 AM Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I translated Piaget's book on dialectics with the aid of google. There was much work both pre- and post-googletranslate though. Part of this I put down to understanding the domain, just as one can question translations if one knows what they are about.
> 
> Huw
> 
> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 18:53, Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com <mailto:anthonymbarra@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Zaza,
> 
> I had no idea that one could translate books without really speaking the original language, as David claims about himself. 
> Nor did I realize the extent to which translating is about reading between the lines, along with the lines themselves. Such an interesting topic . . .
> 
> Perhaps of interest: 
> 1. A brief anecdote from David about a current Korean translation/summary project: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!TiO2m6fI0Yj4kWASI3uw4hSBXD1DvtQD2cEma9sMsEIvof_iEKnEx-yeTd5nRYcb9ombaA$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGU5zV6zbLI__;!!Mih3wA!XQxtj2IoXb7_362eZ5KfjzUbcujo3z8eN1rDP2n6Qw-EPNOKDlCOfjzQOwnnShti9Nhkyw$>  (re: Vygotsky on emotions)
> 2. An old xmca post on translating Vygotsky into Korean:http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2011_05.dir/msg00509.html <http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2011_05.dir/msg00509.html>
> 
> I thought these were neat to hear about and maybe enjoyable or others as well.
> 
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 3:30 PM Zaza Kabayadondo <zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com <mailto:zaza.kabayadondo@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I'm moving this to a new thread...
> 
> Thank you for your question, David. I didn't realize people were using Google Translate. It's great for some languages - not so much for anything from Southern Africa at least as far as I've observed. 
> 
> Yes, I do speak Shona. I like to distinguish between functional Shona and idiomatic Shona. Functional Shona is literal and idiomatic Shona is literary (though spoken). I'm not a Shona linguist so I'm making up terms for the distinction I perceive but there might already be a convention for how Shona linguists describe the difference. Functional Shona is what you will hear people using on the streets. It is a more literal or explicit way of speaking and very similar to European meaning and sensemaking. In functional Shona you might say "I am tired." "She arrived yesterday." It some contexts it is considered rather crass to speak so directly of your feelings, wants, needs. I contrast this to idiomatic Shona which is a version of the language our elders spoke, it reflects pre-colonial Shona culture and thinking because it "beats around the bush". You would rarely directly ask a question, everything was a metaphor, a vague suggestion, never explicitly spelt out. It is more diplomatic, more evasive, and can be problematic when it comes to talking about social or political issues. Tuku sings in this idiomatic style. Tuku's song Bvuma is the best example of his style of which allows for double entendre (He is saying "Tolerance has faded" but he could also mean "Just accept that you're old." 
> 
> Todii is about HIV/AIDS. Originally, "utachiwana" meant any virus or germ, the underlying cause of an illness, but over time the only virus people talk about is HIV. (In "Hutachiwana" the "h" is a modifier emphasizes you mean "the virus"). The style is call-and-response which is typical in Shona folk music, both traditional and contemporary. The call and its response should be read as one sentence.
> 
> As for the lyrics in question: 
> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
> Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the one you live with...If you have a virus
> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma** ...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
> Translation: How it must hurt to be raped by the man** who married you ...If you have a virus
> **The literal meaning is "by the one who paid roora (lobola/bride price)"
> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
> Translation: When he knows you have the virus...If you have a virus
> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana...(Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
> Translation: And you know you have the virus...If you have a virus
> In the last two lines the response almost implies "hypothetically, let's say you have a virus." And for me this is really where the song touches on the sensibility of HIV/AIDS as it was experienced in Zimbabwe in the moment of the song. Not knowing who has it, suspecting who has it etc. Tuku was masterful with his play on words and structure.  
> 
> 
> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 2:56 AM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Zaza--
> 
> Dude, I don't really speak Russian either, as Nikolai and Anna will tell you (we only speak English). In my translation work I spend a lot more time on Google Translate than I would like, and that's why I burden the list with the queries you mention from time to time.. But I bet you speak Shona, or at least understand a little. 
> 
> So maybe you can help. I'm using this tune from the late great Tuku (Oliver Mtukudzi) in a class I am giving on sex education in Korea. I've been told that it doesn't really mention AIDS/HIV explicitly, and I get that--in fact, that's one of the reasons why I think it's useful for making certain parallels between pandemics and also discussing HPV and other issues I want to talk about. But I don't quite understand THIS verse--maybe you can help me?
>   
> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa newaugere naye
> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
> Zvinorwadza sei kubhinywa neakabvisa pfuma
> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
> Achiziva unahwo hutachiwana
> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
> Ende uchiziva unahwo hutachiwana
> (Kana uinahwo utachiwana)
> 
> So "Kana uinahwo utachiwana" means something like "If you get infected". But what is the reference to being raped by your roommate?
> 
> On the subject of this thread. Like voter fraud, racism is a very serious charge, and the right has successfully made hay out of its seriousness. But as with voter fraud they have made even more hay out of rendering the charge unproveable, by removing its class content and rendering it a purely subjective inclination. This is why, I think (I hope), Arturo and others tend to raise this sort of thing in private off-list material that is so much at variance with their public writings that it fairly attracts the charge of hypocrisy or at least political timidity. After all, if you really suspect your interlocutor of racism, it's incumbent on you to keep your mouth and not just your eyes open. But you've got to put money where your mouth is: you have to provide some evidence (e.g. the paper that Harshad circulated on the list not too long ago). There are important scientific issues we need to discuss which are actually not unrelated to the one that Arturo was reacting to: whether you can accurately judge the language proficiency of a person by their race or national origin (as I have done in the second paragraph above). Not unrelated. But not identical to either, else I would not have written that paragraph. 
> 
> Here's an example. A dear colleague of mine, who like the vast majority of people in this country is not white and wouldn't know deficit linguistics from a surplus, has just written a paper on why Korean children tend to drop articles (i.e. "a" and "the"). He begins with the Chomskyan premise that all nouns must, according to universal human grammars which are hardwired at birth, be realized by "determiner phrases". What that means is that a noun phrase like "the cat" is not really about a cat--it's about "the", and the "the" is modified by "cat" (What kind of "the-ness" do you mean? The cat kind!)
> 
> But it's THIS, and not Vygotskyan, Hallidayan, or Bernsteinian developmentalism, that is deficit linguistics. I won't say it is racist, because unfortunately that term has lost its scientific content and become nothing but a thought crime. But I will say that people who speak languages without articles or languages that emphasize nouns over determiners (e.g. Korean, Chinese, Russian) are not born with a birth defect (or "null spell out", as the Chomskyans say).
> 
> Does Shona have articles or not? Do you know?
>  
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!TiO2m6fI0Yj4kWASI3uw4hSBXD1DvtQD2cEma9sMsEIvof_iEKnEx-yeTd5nRYdF4p4vZQ$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY0JssD8Hzc__;!!Mih3wA!QePX9kKiZVk8QmwFWMwYJblxjbu3_Pd2XeZXyOV1YZVr6VOrUaRfbuTZlUpgqPtWWiBSSw$>
> 
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
> 
> New Book with Nikolai Veresov
> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. I: The Foundations of Pedology
> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by David Kellogg and Nikolai Veresov
> See free downloadable pdf at:
> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!TiO2m6fI0Yj4kWASI3uw4hSBXD1DvtQD2cEma9sMsEIvof_iEKnEx-yeTd5nRYdAylXaKQ$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007*2F978-981-15-0528-7__;JQ!!Mih3wA!QePX9kKiZVk8QmwFWMwYJblxjbu3_Pd2XeZXyOV1YZVr6VOrUaRfbuTZlUpgqPuZA6tlEA$>
> 
> Forthcoming in 2020:
> L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Vol. II: The Problem of Age.
> Translated with Prefatory Notes and Outlines by Nikolai Veresov and David Kellogg
> 
> 
> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 6:02 PM Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> P.S. To my best understanding (very minimal, no doubt), the subject matter of Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory is the development of human higher psychological functions. (How that is "left," "right," or otherwise is beyond me.) 
> 
> Political propensities can be discerned across some (adult) developmental stages.
> 
> Huw
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> To schedule up a 30 minute call using Calendly: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!TiO2m6fI0Yj4kWASI3uw4hSBXD1DvtQD2cEma9sMsEIvof_iEKnEx-yeTd5nRYehnCLShw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/with-zaza__;!!Mih3wA!RxBugkPeSU52iebyZbytaRN6b8sia_hpIDOL6pIpcLsKG3mACdIY-Pl17TPuYPBbMKqBLQ$>
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