[Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing"

Tue May 26 16:39:55 PDT 2020

David-

As a participant in these discussions over many years, I have never found
it helpful to refer to my colleagues as witless, nor to label
a whole generation of scholars such as Bill Labov with a labels such as
Anti-Marxists liberals.

With that kind of starting point, broadcast into the distributed
discussants, I don't much want to continue.
The issue of differences and deficits is alive, but taking it up this way
is a turn off.

My colleagues and I have our own bone to pick with Labov's analysis  (
lchcautobio.ucsd.edu, chapter 2).
If people want to discuss the issue, one might start with a little
archeology in the MCA archives for the messages sent in the last
few decades.  Search the site for Bernstein .  A lot of good Harry Daniels
work there, as well as David's own prior writing.

Perhaps this time around a re-admiration of the issues can connect with the
ever-upcoming MCA symposium that David organized on Halliday Hasan Vygotsky
Bernstein .

Serious, inclusive discussion yes, but not drive by hits. Please.
mike

On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 2:43 PM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> Rob--
>
> Thanks--my link works okay, but it's probably because I'm already logged
> in. So I replaced the link with yours.
>
> For a fine example of witless misunderstanding justified with willfull
> misrepresentation that was used to drive  Bernstein's work out of the
> academy, see the work of Peter Jones, referenced in my article.
>
> Peter E. Jones (2013) Bernstein's ‘codes’ and the linguistics of
> ‘deficit’, Language and Education, 27:2, 161-179, DOI:
> 10.1080/09500782.2012.760587
>
> Notice the scare quotes around "code" (which Bernstein did
> use) and likewise the term "deficit" (which Bernstein explicitly
> repudiated). Clever, huh?
>
> But Jones doesn't make this stuff up. He mostly just borrows from the long
> liberal anti-Marxist American tradition of this kind of attack, going back
> to William Labov. For example, the "linguist" Jones cites against Halliday
> is actually a historian of psychology (Jonathan Edwards) who argues that
> some cultures can have completely degenerate moral codes but very advanced
> languages, such as cannibal savages!
>
> A few years ago we were discussing an article here on xmca by Marilyn
> Fleer and I asked her if she was a Bernsteinian. I have always considered
> myself one, and I was genuinely curious to find others of a similar
> persuasion; Bernstein's name was not so blackened in Australia as it was in
> America, and Ruqaiya Hasan, who taught in Sydney, was always proud to
> acknowledge Bernstein as her colleague and mentor. Marilyn was a little
> indignant.
>
> Michael--
>
> Here in Korea the main way of giving on-line classes is just uploading
> audio file which the student then listen to when they have time and giving
> lots of homework. Curiously, some of the kids prefer this. ALL of my
> students dislike using the camera. I am not sure what to make of this...
>
> Every crisis is a turning point. Education has gleefully saddled three
> cash cows: foreign students, college sports, and diploma mills, and all
> three of these are now hamburger. On the one hand, Zoom classes and audio
> classes allow us to provide universal college education for almost
> nothing--if we can solve the mediational problems. On the other, pinkspace
> classes can easily be social-distanced--if we can just make undergraduate
> classes the size of graduate seminars (with more classes outside in good
> weather). But both solutions--universal online tertiary education and
> extending the graduate seminar experience to undergraduates--will
> inevitably hinge on the outcome of the struggle to make education an
> intellectual public institution instead of a semi-intellectual luxury
> brand,  and this in turn will hinge on the struggle for preventive medicine
> based on foresight instead of astonishment.
>
> Oi, Tom! (Way over on the other thread, so I have to shout!)
>
> Vygotsky writes a LOT about Spinoza; his sister was doing her PhD on the
> guy when he was still in high school and he went to stay with her at Moscow
> University and caught the bug. He was working on a vast tome on how
> Spinoza's work could be retooled to give us a Marxist (materialist, monist,
> but dialectical) theory of higher emotions when he died. We are translating
> it all into Korean, and I am trying to write a preface. Spinoza believed in
> sentient meat: "Deus, Sive Natura" ("God, that is to say, Nature...") Above
> all, though, Spinoza believed that emotions are anything that increases or
> decreases our ability to do things. The interesting thing, which I am still
> trying to wrap my head around, is that one of those things that does this
> is the idea of the emotion itself--the perezhivanie.
>
>
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
> Outlines, Spring 2020
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!X1zjCva6r_wJtblbWyHJOS_15YhqYur4K3g8dMt0_sNP7KBTphH_bMveKYl_veC2HqcT2g$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Xxc_XhqDwcRNNskS29_qkEvlYqR1a1UszU0k6dB-USF8PCH3fnJ5OcvuWgTKCF-MUhfj1A$>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume
> One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!X1zjCva6r_wJtblbWyHJOS_15YhqYur4K3g8dMt0_sNP7KBTphH_bMveKYl_veCwFzHjcw$ 
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Xxc_XhqDwcRNNskS29_qkEvlYqR1a1UszU0k6dB-USF8PCH3fnJ5OcvuWgTKCF94i4Ox7A$>
>
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:51 PM Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello David, Elizabeth, Annalisa, Rob, others,
>>
>> Well social presence and teacher presence are two completely different
>> lines of research and thinking even though they sound alike. Teacher
>> presence comes from localized classroom research while social presence
>> comes from the communication field I believe sometime in the 1960s.  Lately
>> I have begun to think of teacher presence as similar to Bourdeiu's cultural
>> capital. Our education system teaches certain groups of children how to
>> read and get in sync with teachers from their more subtle physical signs so
>> that they become more successful later in their school careers and in life.
>> Many of the more successful children also get practice in reading these
>> different signs at home. It is the old adage, don't listen to what I say,
>> watch what I do. Social presence on the other hand is more related to our
>> own understanding of our own communications and the value of those
>> communications. We have a sense of what we are doing from those who are
>> watching us (in the broad sense), and this sense changes as our sense of
>> those who are watching us changes not only how we act but the investment we
>> make in what we do changes accordingly. I see it all the time in teachers,
>> who they are changes completely when they get up in from of a room of
>> students. Just a mind experiment. The next time you read an XMCA post see
>> if you can imagine a few of the members standing over your should observing
>> you are you are reading with the expectation of some response. See how this
>> might change your behavior.
>>
>> As for Zoom. I just think it is not a good tool for education and the
>> reason we use it is illusory (because it recreates a place-based experience
>> so we are more comfortable with it?).  Zoom's purpose is not education in
>> the sense of knowledge sharing and knowledge creation. Its proximal purpose
>> I believe was to sell to corporations and such for meetings so they would
>> not have to spend as much on travel. Its distal purpose, meeting platforms
>> in general, was so individuals could engage in multiple activities related
>> to the topic but not focused on the topic. I mean it is kind of cool, you
>> can have a meeting where you wear a tie on top and boxer shorts below. And
>> we are sometimes a talking head culture. But it is by nature very
>> unilateral and expert oriented. Do we have to develop a whole new cultural
>> capital oeuvre for Zoom meetings. We must make sure that those who are
>> ahead stay ahead. Annalisa in answer to your question no education or Zoom,
>> I worry about binary choices such as this. Maybe we should be asking
>> ourselves how we got here in the first place. Why are these our only two
>> choices right now, and many attempts using Meeting platforms are failing as
>> they seem to be, how do we move forward from here. Why aren't we asking
>> more questions, trying to understand how our great digital experiment is
>> failing education. And speaking to Rob's poignant use of the term pink
>> space, why is the lack of universal broadband dominating discussions. I
>> think about the whole one to one movement and I really question why we
>> leaped ahead to this without a reckoning over the need to have every corner
>> of our society equitably wired (spoiler alert: because instead of
>> corporations making oodles of money our society will have to spend oodles
>> of money). So Annalisa I got back to your question, is it better to have no
>> education or Zoom and I ask if you stepped on a nail would it be better to
>> put on a band-aid to stop the bleeding or to figure our how to save your
>> life (I know the answer will be both but where do I prioritize).
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> On Behalf Of robsub@ariadne.org.uk
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:53 AM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Teacher Distancing and "Social Distancing"
>>
>> Just a couple of very quick observations. (I find regularly that by the
>> time I have formulated my response to something, the conversation has moved
>> on by several degrees, so I'm getting in quickly.)
>>
>> Firstly the link to your article on Ruqaiya didn't resolve, David. But I
>> found it here:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-UtouXiIa-kw$
>> . Thank you for that, though - looks well worth reading.
>>
>> Secondly, I always had the impression that Bernstein was resisted not
>> because of his work on codes specifically, but because he was too prone to
>> allowing his work to be used to justify class differentials, almost to the
>> level of the poor keep themselves poor by deliberately restricting the
>> language their children learn.
>>
>> Thirdly, meatspace. Hmmm. I'm toying with the idea of pinkspace. Less
>> physically vulgar than meatspace and reflects the reality that the physical
>> world, just like the online world, is dominated by those of us who are
>> pink. Just a thought. Needs developing though.
>>
>> Rob
>>
>>
>> On 2020-05-26 03:08, David Kellogg wrote:
>> > Michael, Anthony, Elizabeth--and (of course) Annalisa:
>> >
>> > I apologize for changing the threadline title AGAIN. I feel like the
>> > five-year-old who is always unscrewing the back of the TV set to see
>> > the little people inside; I was very dissatisfied withe the abstract
>> > theory on the other line, according to which everything is everything
>> > and mediation and unmediation are equally both and I wanted a way of
>> > finding the people inside it. I thought the term "meatspace", which
>> > Annalisa has heard before, captured that feeling pretty well (and
>> > there are also some echoes of a corruscating book review I once read
>> > in MCA titled something like "Yer askin' me to believe in sentient
>> > MEAT????")
>> >
>> > Let's use Michael's categories of "teacher presence" and "social
>> > presence" instead, so long as we keep in mind the point that Michael
>> > made at the end, that is, the teacher is always present even when the
>> > teacher is not present (as when the child is doing homework alone) and
>> > the additional point that teacher presence is one kind of social
>> > presence. But because presence and absence are (like mediated and
>> > unmediated) equally both ungradeable categories, I would prefer to
>> > talk about teacher distancing and social distancing. Michael Osterholm
>> > has objected to the term social distancing for the same reasons I
>> > raised earlier--it's a physical, mechanical distancing that actually
>> > creates a higher form of solidarity (and that is why the elements of
>> > society which oppose higher forms of solidarity oppose it). So I put
>> > "social distancing" in scare quotes. But the teacher distancing is
>> > real enough.
>> >
>> > Real but not by itself of developmental significance. What worries me
>> > is the possibility that we are adding to the kinds of inequalitiees
>> > that Annalisa, Henry and Tom are talking about on the other thread. It
>> > seems to me that teacher distancing differentially hurts some
>> > populations. I disagree that Koreans are more homogeneous than other
>> > cultures (in class terms significantly  less so) and I also think that
>> > if you were to sit through a lecture in the Korean language without
>> > understanding Korean you would not agree that language is the least
>> > important aspect of teacher presence. But (to bring these two
>> > together) I think that students who are able to focus on language, and
>> > on particular kinds of language, are disproportionately enabled in
>> > conditions of teacher distancing. This is the issue that dare not
>> > speak its name, for when Bernstein tried to raise it he was, as
>> > Halliday noted, "driven out of the field".  One of the reasons I wrote
>> > the article linked below is that Ruqaiya Hasan was not.
>> >
>> > David Kellogg
>> >
>> > Sangmyung University
>> >
>> > New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>> > Outlines, Spring 2020
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie
>> > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d
>> > 7Wrm3_kaKqODPVr-Utot_Yz0eEQ$  [1]
>> >
>> > New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: _L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological
>> > Works_ _Volume One: Foundations of Pedology_"
>> >
>> >
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150
>> > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!XdBjusDTRI2ze6diFPoONbkpS5qFdLZworNTRS5-z-d7Wrm3_kaKqO
>> > DPVr-UtotPljj6rQ$  [2]
>> >
>> >
>> > Links:
>> > ------
>> > [1]
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/vie
>> > w/116238/167607__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zc
>> > e9P2I5M_FZBJKElhGyP20UejX0w$
>> > [2]
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/978981150
>> > 5270__;!!Mih3wA!VO48fELJW7sniTLYfb-jdmrQdoIXI216JGBeW6N8-Zce9P2I5M_FZB
>> > JKElhGyP026P9-1A$
>>
>>
>>

-- 

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