[Xmca-l] structure and agency

Andy Blunden andyb@marxists.org
Tue Jun 30 21:03:53 PDT 2020


At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant 
structures, which explicate how a social formation 
reproduces itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. But 
look again. At the heart of Hegel's /Logic /and Marx's 
/Capital /is a contradiction. The structure is built around 
*contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain 
point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation.

Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in 
his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov 
explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960 
monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's /Capital/."

andy

------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGjjKVnsjw$ >
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On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote:
> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with 
> the distinctions you are making?
> Mike
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden 
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
>     I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates
>     from the beginning of the 20th century and
>     poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there
>     were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is
>     undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky.
>     But as I see it, "Structuralism" and
>     "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded
>     projects. I agree that both of these projects have had
>     an impact or influence on the development of Critical
>     Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist."
>
>       * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGhCCx0aDQ$ 
>         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZxvdPoTlw$>
>
>     Andy
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>     *Andy Blunden*
>     Hegel for Social Movements
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZwfv_bGZg$>
>     Home Page
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>
>     On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote:
>>
>>     Mike,
>>
>>     Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My
>>     guess/impression is that as critical theory and
>>     sociocultural theory evolved both have been
>>     influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has
>>     made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in
>>     either arena really grappled with the implications of
>>     such a turn.
>>
>>     David
>>
>>     *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>     <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf
>>     Of *mike cole
>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM
>>     *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>     <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>     <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>     *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>>     That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is
>>     cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or
>>     stability of structure?
>>
>>     Most of the marxist social science I am reading these
>>     days focuses on transformational agency and take
>>     their roots from Vygotsky
>>
>>     and (various )predecessors, so this is
>>     post-structuralist Marxism?
>>
>>     mike
>>
>>     On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner
>>     <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>         S’ma et al.,
>>
>>         The issue of victimhood and “victim mentality” is
>>         roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and
>>         postmodernist, structuralist and
>>         poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is
>>         always perspectival—I have been wronged. In a
>>         modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be
>>         able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e.,
>>         structuralist) account that authorizes its
>>         significance. Critical theory, stemming from
>>         Marxist theory, is such a structuralist
>>         account—or perhaps, more accurately, a
>>         structuralist project as it is not clear that
>>         critical theorists have arrived at consensus
>>         about the theory. Postmodernism and
>>         poststructuralism abandon the structuralist
>>         mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock
>>         structural perspective that can encompass the
>>         variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my
>>         victimhood is simply my perspective, and the
>>         project of establishing its viability is purely a
>>         political one. Any of us can experience ourselves
>>         as victims, and assert a political claim to that
>>         effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right
>>         that embodies this poststructuralist critique of
>>         victimhood, and the political Left that orients
>>         itself in structuralism.
>>
>>         David
>>
>>         *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>         <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> *On
>>         Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela
>>         *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM
>>         *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>         <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>         *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>>         Hi Annalisa and colleagues
>>
>>         Thank you for processing my earlier articulation
>>         in such an impeccable manner. I see how your
>>         method of using definitions as a foundation for
>>         conversations, specially sensitive conversations
>>         in a multicultural forum such as this one. You
>>         have beautifully demonstrated that in your
>>         response below and in some of your previous
>>         enlightening contributions.
>>
>>         Your reference to the George Orwell’s 1984  is
>>         quite fitting in this situation; when  a victim
>>         expresses that they are victimised, they are then
>>         “gaslighted”, as there is something seriously
>>         wrong with their mentality – the victim
>>         mentality. It is short of saying “do not think”
>>         that you are victimised even if there is
>>         “victimisation”, or you “were” victimised.
>>         Perhaps we can accept better with “survivors” but
>>         the conditions and the context under which”
>>         survivors” continue to survive.
>>
>>         Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept,
>>         “Critical Theory”  to name, and shine light on
>>         the hidden aspects of “survivorhood”, where the
>>         conditions for thinking about or “reflecting”
>>         surviving are determined and controlled, even
>>         those who have power – “scientific or unscientific”.
>>
>>         There is undeniable history of efforts and
>>         activities of survivors of different forms
>>         oppressions and genocides,  where generations of
>>         survivors have shown resilience and the ability
>>         to move on, but only to be met with new and
>>         systematic ways of  psychological and economic
>>         oppression. Leaving them with no option but to
>>         survive by different means at the disposal,
>>         including becoming religious with the home for
>>         future redemption. Of more interest to me are
>>         those who keep trying using   “enlightened” ways
>>         by intellectually explaining to themselves as a
>>         collective and to the oppressor with the hope to
>>         bring about change for their situation – the
>>         “doing something about their situation.” Using
>>         the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young
>>         https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGjMruH83w$ 
>>         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fm.facebook.com*2Fstory.php*3Fstory_fbid*3D10158129729940856*26id*3D522190855__*3B!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViAr2G5ncg*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420272281*26sdata*3DwTDn9GfEmrNWmDs7ZKaYDsB6FZCeMUVhqsyWF9XzaeE*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWe6MGJgg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126470977&sdata=Uuw6Xaz8ott*2FqhOnnPfx1NVKD7viv29J7hBq6yDOtQU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5D4stnMCQ$>
>>         (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a
>>         way that highlights why “victim mentality” is not
>>         an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who
>>         are working hard to be free, let alone to be at
>>         par with the oppressors’ “survivors” if I may say
>>         so. The video is in the context of the gruesome
>>         protests after the murder of George Floyd,
>>         perhaps what is important for this conversation
>>         is the content, the meaning of her articulations,
>>         though her expressions are accompanied by very
>>         strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy
>>         worth my reflection.
>>
>>         I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some
>>         links between Cultural Historical Activity
>>         Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice
>>         theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this
>>         thread who have used these theoretical lenses in
>>         their work in trying to understand mental
>>         development it the global context. I think
>>         Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of
>>         the appropriate tools to explain that which
>>         concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding
>>         its way of infiltrating critical spaces in
>>         communities, including academia, which he sees as
>>         nothing but “Grievance Studies”  and threatening
>>         scientific thinking.
>>
>>         It has been good partaking in these
>>         conversations. I think reflections can continue
>>         to happen in private at a personal level and in
>>         smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to
>>         reflect on our thinking and our learning. I
>>         myself have learned a lot from this thread, in
>>         conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I
>>         read your contributions, to the point I  at times
>>         pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said
>>         in this thread.
>>
>>         Regards
>>
>>         S’ma
>>
>>         *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>         <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> *On
>>         Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar
>>         *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37
>>         *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>         <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>         *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>>         Hello S'ma and venerable others,
>>
>>         I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory
>>         being posed as a "grievance science," as if
>>         taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality"
>>         around the shoulders, etc.
>>
>>         It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to
>>         that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers.
>>
>>         Still, to consider it analytically, Critical
>>         Theory by design is intended to uncover the
>>         ideologies by which certain social sciences have
>>         been taught and promulgated. It's
>>         de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen
>>         as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable
>>         work from stripping off the veneer of power
>>         structures in order to analyze its underlying
>>         logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and
>>         reveals that privilege is usually not earned
>>         through merit.
>>
>>         When considering relations of power, it's easy
>>         (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to
>>         name the powerless as "victims," but when this is
>>         done, it is only in an objection when victims
>>         call themselves victims, as if they have no right
>>         to do so.
>>
>>         So who has the right to use this word "victim"?
>>
>>         I feel there is a strange aura about the word
>>         that is likened to the word "masochistic" and
>>         it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my
>>         post here.
>>
>>         Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are
>>         actual and legitimate victims. There seems
>>         intertwined in the meaning of the word something
>>         unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming
>>         the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious,
>>         gaslighting, and these have results of its own
>>         harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult
>>         to injury").
>>
>>         Can no one use the word "victim" anymore?
>>
>>         Frequently people use the word "survivor," which
>>         does have connotations of resilience and
>>         fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But
>>         when we consider the word "survivor" when used as
>>         the name of a reality game show  (in the early
>>         naughts). where people choose to put themselves
>>         in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to
>>         overcome these circumstances by their wits, to
>>         then be "voted off the island" by the other
>>         "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism!
>>
>>         I feel there is still something the word
>>         "survivor" leaves unspoken about the
>>         representation of a person who has been a target
>>         of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether
>>         intentionally or not.
>>
>>         Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim"
>>         and found these:
>>
>>          1. a person who suffers from a destructive or
>>             injurious action or agency: a victim of an
>>             automobile accident.
>>          2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by
>>             his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the
>>             dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal
>>             agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the
>>             victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical
>>             illusion.
>>          3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as
>>             sacrificed: war victims.
>>          4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites.
>>
>>         When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this:
>>
>>         casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt,
>>         clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull,
>>         hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy,
>>         pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice,
>>         scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe
>>         in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured
>>         party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch.
>>
>>         I did the same for the term survivor:
>>
>>          1. a person or thing that survives.
>>          2. Law. the one of two or more designated
>>             persons, as joint tenants or others having a
>>             joint interest, who outlives the other or others.
>>          3. a person who continues to function or prosper
>>             in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks.
>>
>>         Synoymns:
>>
>>         balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments,
>>         remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest,
>>         scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts
>>
>>         The third definition seems  the lest frequent
>>         usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning?
>>
>>         It is odd to consider victims as designated
>>         parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be
>>         considered mere leftovers.
>>
>>         Is it that the life energy of victims are like
>>         easily accessible batteries to be utilized for
>>         the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that
>>         what criminals do? To appropriate the property or
>>         energy of others for their own unearned benefit
>>         and advancement?
>>
>>         Is that fitness or crime?
>>
>>         t the same time to be a survivor seems to be
>>         something left less whole.
>>
>>         What then would one call an individual or group
>>         who has been overpowered against their
>>         self-agency by another individual or group? Is
>>         there a word without these undertowing currents
>>         of meaning?
>>
>>         We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I
>>         have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just
>>         as no one likes to say "I have been victimized,"
>>         "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by
>>         your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by
>>         yours."
>>
>>         And yet, these would be factual pronouncements,
>>         were legitimate individuals (victims) of those
>>         actual experiences to describe themselves in this
>>         fashion.
>>
>>         Would it be no different than an individual
>>         saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I
>>         oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize
>>         others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society
>>         victimizes your society," or "My ancestors
>>         enslaved yours."
>>
>>         The problem in making these sorts of statements
>>         is that while factual and descriptive, they can
>>         actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As
>>         if to say, "I did this and I can do it again
>>         because that's who I am." or "This happened to me
>>         and it can happen again because that's who I am."
>>
>>         While there are people such as this Lindsay (I
>>         did not watch the video), who can throw about
>>         "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to
>>         wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the
>>         same disdain to describe those who performed
>>         grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter
>>         a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that
>>         might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my
>>         estimation, whatever the words, it would be right
>>         and just they should provide that shadow of
>>         shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory
>>         is attempting to understand, without further
>>         empowering perpetrators and without further
>>         disempowering victims.
>>
>>         Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because
>>         a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to
>>         correct for the crime, that it somehow means
>>         justice cannot be performed? In a sort of
>>         "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of
>>         attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead
>>         bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the
>>         unpleasantness of the task?
>>
>>         Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard
>>         to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime?
>>
>>         In the days of the American Wild West, justice
>>         was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is
>>         too slowly.
>>
>>         This is why I wonder how to consider science when
>>         we are talking about power structures. What is
>>         scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems
>>         unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it?
>>
>>         Were we to describe the cause and effect of such
>>         power structures and their internal reasoning, it
>>         would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the
>>         promotion of eugenics.
>>
>>         I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw
>>         many years ago, the name of the guest I don't
>>         remember. I only recall he was a politico for the
>>         George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed
>>         his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say
>>         that it was an instruction booklet on how to
>>         create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant
>>         honesty was breathtaking.
>>
>>         Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the
>>         case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for
>>         the oppressor to say, "I have some
>>         self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of
>>         my ancestors, to make up for the injustices
>>         suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of
>>         privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't
>>         feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I
>>         see the errors of my ways."
>>
>>         It feels there is no obligation for
>>         reconciliation because such folk percieve the
>>         cement of history has been poured and dried.
>>         "It's in the past, let's move on."
>>
>>         There is something absurd about the tacit
>>         agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to
>>         sort out how it might be not to be so absurd
>>         sounding.
>>
>>         Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this
>>         reflection?
>>
>>         I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but
>>         that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my
>>         reasoning, and of course the typos there above.
>>
>>         Kind regards,
>>
>>         Annalisa
>>
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>         *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>         <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
>>         behalf of Simangele Mayisela
>>         <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>>         <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>>
>>         *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM
>>         *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>         <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>         *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>>         *  [EXTERNAL]*
>>
>>         Hi Andy and Alfredo
>>
>>         Thank you for responding to my communication, and
>>         for viewing  the video I referred to in my
>>         previous email. Let me say that the connection
>>         between the current conversation about
>>         “scientific” knowledge (in this case in relation
>>         to  “levels” of mental development and
>>         “ideology”) and James Lindsay’s argument on
>>         Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in
>>         the video) is this:
>>
>>         Lindsayand his colleagues believe that Critical
>>         Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical
>>         Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory,
>>          Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific
>>         base but are a  movement  which they call
>>         “Grievance studies”,  that perpetuates
>>         “self-pity” and “victim mentality”. They further
>>         went on to produce fake scientific study “dog
>>         rape culture and feminism” known as “hoax
>>         science” as evidence of how unscientific
>>         “grievance studies” are;  most of which are of
>>         course are situated in the social sciences. This
>>         further exposed the paucity in the system of peer
>>         reviews in scientific journals, which some
>>         believe are also tainted by ideological
>>         predispositions – my fear is that this introduces
>>         mistrust in the notion of review processes of
>>         scientific journals -  which we have to be
>>         concerned about.
>>
>>         The reason I brought up Lindsay’s argument to the
>>         picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly
>>         agree with Lindsay’s argument on Critical
>>         Theories, I  am however fascinated by the fact
>>         that they confirm the influence of ideological
>>         position an individual or rather a “scientist”
>>         holds,  ( an idea alluded to by some,  earlier in
>>         this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to
>>         be objective in our pursuit of scientific
>>         enquiry, the narratives associated with our
>>         scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted
>>         with ideologically biases or historicity. The
>>         likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our
>>         attention the dangers of the exclusion of the
>>         masses in the name of “scientific evidence” – who
>>         in this day of rapid technological connection the
>>         collective is gradually become global rather than
>>         in specific localities. Even those that deemed to
>>         have “primitive mental functioning” or
>>         “unsophisticated” mental functioning, their
>>         unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and
>>         other spaces with Critical Theory like a  “Trojan
>>         Horse”, that’s according to Bret Weinstein (
>>         po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/
>>         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2F*2Fpo.nl*2F2020*2F06*2F20*2Fmust-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse*2F__*3B!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87zhqcRqSA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126480974&sdata=OgkwRQ102d*2BW*2FUntR5jqwUD44OozPBxwZ495zg7NrtI*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5As5j44Bw$>
>>         ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if
>>         Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific
>>         evidence of “self-pity”, “victim mentality”,
>>         unsophisticated mental functioning, … (we can add
>>         other classifying adjectives to describe all
>>         those who have not developed “scientific tools”).
>>
>>         My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related
>>         to some of the sources that I have encountered
>>         earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I
>>         referred you to, but it is  within this line of
>>         debates about “scientific” knowledge”.
>>
>>         It seems to me that the association of  Paulo
>>         Freire’s  “Education for the Oppressed” to
>>         "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps
>>         mistook for “Education for the Depressed”, which
>>         is unfortunate, especially if we take into
>>         consideration all the publications by Freire,
>>         like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the
>>         Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education
>>         is evidence of  the collectively formulated
>>         knowledge that is generously shared, rendering
>>         the commodified "scientific"  knowledge
>>         accessible to the privileged few, generously
>>         shared to all who needs to advance the survival
>>         of humanity.
>>
>>         Regards,
>>
>>         Simangele
>>
>>         simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>>         <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>
>>
>>         *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>         <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> *On
>>         Behalf Of *Andy Blunden
>>         *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37
>>         *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>         *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>>         Casting collective efforts at self-determination
>>         as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long
>>         been a line of right-wing criticism of
>>         progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo
>>         Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin
>>         though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like
>>         Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping
>>         people from being victims to self-determination.
>>         There is such a thing as a politics of pity
>>         though; it is called philanthropy and charity.
>>
>>         Andy
>>
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>         *Andy Blunden*
>>         Hegel for Social Movements
>>         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRESHVrtCaw*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420282275*26sdata*3DoX74*2BlINhl3MWMlwht3oCw5PTrjXyxOQX17*2BfVvxpf8*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LW-P86LBA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126480974&sdata=IkuUm91U9GMwiGxaDJXhs8w5QnwrCsBLNDtBPb0z6pA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqKiolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5BzBwex0g$>
>>         Home Page
>>         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCREQ2rLbDLg*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420282275*26sdata*3D97yLyLrH0AJ5QXEU2RAXGWLVxXa6i54MPGgfam6vXFI*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LU90iyCdw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126490969&sdata=NqHc8uV*2BR9b3*2BpgP4CeIG*2F8x8fTkOajO08luWCkeAzo*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiUlKioqKioqKiolJSolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5Ck5wUnZA$>
>>
>>
>>         On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>>
>>             thanks S’ma; among the many philosophy of
>>             science scholars who discuss what rigorous
>>             scientific and scholarship are or can be,
>>             your choice—a video critiquing critical
>>             theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as
>>             “grievance studies”–is  indeed surprising and
>>             remarkable in the context of this conversation!
>>
>>             In the video, which did not so much touch my
>>             small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as
>>             to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay
>>             mentions Paolo Freire’s Pedagogy of the
>>             Oppressed as an example of “critical social
>>             justice” books, which he defines as “a
>>             codified way to indulge people into self
>>             pity…”(min. 47:50). He complains that
>>             teachers are being educated with Freire’s
>>             book, and that students are being taught with
>>             this critical (or, as Lindsay’s says, this
>>             self-pity) attitude. Without going into
>>             whether Lindsay’s critique holds or has any
>>             touch with what critical theory scholars
>>             argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from
>>             Lindsay’s position, an example of a good book
>>             for teachers, and why would that one be it?
>>
>>             Alfredo
>>
>>             *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on
>>             behalf of Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net>
>>             <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>
>>             *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>             Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54
>>             *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>             <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>>             Hi Simangele,
>>
>>             How are you evaluating “level of mental
>>             functioning”? I would say that is something
>>             with which psychology has had some difficulty.
>>
>>             Martin
>>
>>             /"I may say that whenever I meet
>>             Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss
>>             matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber,
>>             I become at once aware that my partner does
>>             not understand anything in the matter, and I
>>             end usually with the feeling that this also
>>             applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)/
>>
>>                 On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele
>>                 Mayisela <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>>                 <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>>
>>                 wrote:
>>
>>                 Further,  I still have more questions,
>>                 however it does appear to me that at the
>>                 heart of the “hypothesis” of the
>>                 scientific question are the “levels” of
>>                 mental development which are associated
>>                 to “skin colour”, with little
>>                 consideration of the historical
>>                 oppression that created the “backwards”
>>                 economies that keep the third of the
>>                 global population is what appears to be
>>                 of low level of mental functioning. The
>>                 question is more about “what is the
>>                 quality of the contents of what is
>>                 embodies by the black skin or a white
>>                 skin?” with the aim to find evidence for
>>                 the difference.
>>
>>                 Just to share, lately  have been viewing
>>                 James Lindsay argument on what is
>>                 “scientific”, “rigorous scientific” and
>>                 “scholarship”  vs popular narratives that
>>                 are a propaganda based on Critical
>>                 Theory, which are taking over academy.
>>                 Here is one his videos that you may want
>>                 to view – if you are Marxist at heart be
>>                 warned that you may be challenged by
>>                 Lindsay’s argument on ideologies.
>>
>>                 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGgdOxR0ZQ$ 
>>                 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.youtube.com*2Fwatch*3Fv*3D8N55gFjg4yg__*3B!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYNmswIv-Q*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420292271*26sdata*3DtYB881hofx2qlKcYHVaGFLwJWbzpFnRD8oRsTDV1y3U*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWZEZpvXQ*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126490969&sdata=QtplwvBnPbeO8pEDjpsqP1r5VP8rKbh4hV6gmpYUbDE*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5Aaswj01g$>
>>
>>                 Regards
>>
>>                 S’ma
>>
>>                 *From:* Simangele Mayisela
>>                 *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10
>>                 *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>                 <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                 <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>                 *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on
>>                 a question.
>>
>>                 Dear Alfredo
>>
>>                 Thank you for taking my attention of
>>                 “level” which is crucial to rendering the
>>                 question “scientific”. But couple with
>>                 level, which could be quantifies as
>>                 “high” and “low” or “superior” or
>>                 “inferior” would account for
>>                 “difference”. As much as the question to
>>                 be asked should be about the “ideological
>>                 basis” , I think the “hypothesis” is
>>                 likely to be linked to the “ideolody” as
>>                 the hypothesis serves as springboard from
>>                 which the scientist works from, which
>>                 informs where the person  will land  in
>>                 terms of the ideas.
>>
>>                 Nevertheless thank you for the
>>                 clarification. I see what you mean ?
>>
>>                 Regards,
>>
>>                 S’ma
>>
> -- 
>
>
>   Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under
>   similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same
>   tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license
>   and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the
>   same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
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> <http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu>.
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