[Xmca-l] structure and agency
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Tue Jun 30 21:03:53 PDT 2020
At first glance Hegel and Marx appear to have erected giant
structures, which explicate how a social formation
reproduces itself. I.e., they look like structuralists. But
look again. At the heart of Hegel's /Logic /and Marx's
/Capital /is a contradiction. The structure is built around
*contradictions*. Under the impact of critique, at a certain
point, the contradiction(s) unfolds as social transformation.
Yrjo Engestrom has endeavoured to incorporate this idea in
his system with its 4-levels of contradiction, and Ilyenkov
explains in detail how Marx and Hegel did it in his 1960
monograph "The Abstract and Concrete in Marx's /Capital/."
andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGjjKVnsjw$ >
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On 1/07/2020 1:42 pm, mike cole wrote:
> David,Andy. So what has transformational agency to do with
> the distinctions you are making?
> Mike
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:04 PM Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> I beg to differ with you David. "Structuralism" dates
> from the beginning of the 20th century and
> poststructuralism from the 1970s roughly. That there
> were structuralist tendencies in Marx's writing is
> undeniable, and likewise with Hegel and with Vygotsky.
> But as I see it, "Structuralism" and
> "Poststructuralism" are specific historically bounded
> projects. I agree that both of these projects have had
> an impact or influence on the development of Critical
> Theory and CHAT, but neither are "structuralist."
>
> * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/concrete-historicism.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGhCCx0aDQ$
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>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!VhKMxK62RuHFPtSiafVaIhcBWu6Corlc8Jwv8StB7faR8dToPmZRX0GyVindCZwfv_bGZg$>
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>
> On 1/07/2020 10:35 am, David H Kirshner wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Marx and Vygotsky both were structural theorists. My
>> guess/impression is that as critical theory and
>> sociocultural theory evolved both have been
>> influenced by poststructural thought, but neither has
>> made a true poststructural turn; nor have scholars in
>> either arena really grappled with the implications of
>> such a turn.
>>
>> David
>>
>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf
>> Of *mike cole
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:59 PM
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>> That was a very clarifying note, David, thanks. So is
>> cultural marxism one way to deal with mutability or
>> stability of structure?
>>
>> Most of the marxist social science I am reading these
>> days focuses on transformational agency and take
>> their roots from Vygotsky
>>
>> and (various )predecessors, so this is
>> post-structuralist Marxism?
>>
>> mike
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 6:19 AM David H Kirshner
>> <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> S’ma et al.,
>>
>> The issue of victimhood and “victim mentality” is
>> roiled by crosscurrents of modernist and
>> postmodernist, structuralist and
>> poststructuralist thought. Victim mentality is
>> always perspectival—I have been wronged. In a
>> modernist frame, the perspective of victim may be
>> able to be aligned with an overarching (i.e.,
>> structuralist) account that authorizes its
>> significance. Critical theory, stemming from
>> Marxist theory, is such a structuralist
>> account—or perhaps, more accurately, a
>> structuralist project as it is not clear that
>> critical theorists have arrived at consensus
>> about the theory. Postmodernism and
>> poststructuralism abandon the structuralist
>> mandate, accepting that there is no bedrock
>> structural perspective that can encompass the
>> variety of local perspectives. So my sense of my
>> victimhood is simply my perspective, and the
>> project of establishing its viability is purely a
>> political one. Any of us can experience ourselves
>> as victims, and assert a political claim to that
>> effect. Interestingly, it is the political Right
>> that embodies this poststructuralist critique of
>> victimhood, and the political Left that orients
>> itself in structuralism.
>>
>> David
>>
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> *On
>> Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 30, 2020 5:25 AM
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>> Hi Annalisa and colleagues
>>
>> Thank you for processing my earlier articulation
>> in such an impeccable manner. I see how your
>> method of using definitions as a foundation for
>> conversations, specially sensitive conversations
>> in a multicultural forum such as this one. You
>> have beautifully demonstrated that in your
>> response below and in some of your previous
>> enlightening contributions.
>>
>> Your reference to the George Orwell’s 1984 is
>> quite fitting in this situation; when a victim
>> expresses that they are victimised, they are then
>> “gaslighted”, as there is something seriously
>> wrong with their mentality – the victim
>> mentality. It is short of saying “do not think”
>> that you are victimised even if there is
>> “victimisation”, or you “were” victimised.
>> Perhaps we can accept better with “survivors” but
>> the conditions and the context under which”
>> survivors” continue to survive.
>>
>> Ok then, then the survivors develop a concept,
>> “Critical Theory” to name, and shine light on
>> the hidden aspects of “survivorhood”, where the
>> conditions for thinking about or “reflecting”
>> surviving are determined and controlled, even
>> those who have power – “scientific or unscientific”.
>>
>> There is undeniable history of efforts and
>> activities of survivors of different forms
>> oppressions and genocides, where generations of
>> survivors have shown resilience and the ability
>> to move on, but only to be met with new and
>> systematic ways of psychological and economic
>> oppression. Leaving them with no option but to
>> survive by different means at the disposal,
>> including becoming religious with the home for
>> future redemption. Of more interest to me are
>> those who keep trying using “enlightened” ways
>> by intellectually explaining to themselves as a
>> collective and to the oppressor with the hope to
>> bring about change for their situation – the
>> “doing something about their situation.” Using
>> the analogy of a monopoly game Tameka Jones Young
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158129729940856&id=522190855__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGjMruH83w$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fm.facebook.com*2Fstory.php*3Fstory_fbid*3D10158129729940856*26id*3D522190855__*3B!!Mih3wA!VX_uq7D0v43DAvM9nEC46ZStRpXjResRedVQUr9zhmuKYSRyZ34CmtUCYxxDViAr2G5ncg*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420272281*26sdata*3DwTDn9GfEmrNWmDs7ZKaYDsB6FZCeMUVhqsyWF9XzaeE*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWe6MGJgg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126470977&sdata=Uuw6Xaz8ott*2FqhOnnPfx1NVKD7viv29J7hBq6yDOtQU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5D4stnMCQ$>
>> (please watch if you a minute to spare) , has a
>> way that highlights why “victim mentality” is not
>> an appropriate, or rather demeaning of those who
>> are working hard to be free, let alone to be at
>> par with the oppressors’ “survivors” if I may say
>> so. The video is in the context of the gruesome
>> protests after the murder of George Floyd,
>> perhaps what is important for this conversation
>> is the content, the meaning of her articulations,
>> though her expressions are accompanied by very
>> strong emotions, I found her monopoly analogy
>> worth my reflection.
>>
>> I must say I owe it to myself to try draw some
>> links between Cultural Historical Activity
>> Theory, Critical Race Theory and Social Justice
>> theory, I admire scholars, some who maybe in this
>> thread who have used these theoretical lenses in
>> their work in trying to understand mental
>> development it the global context. I think
>> Cultural Historical Activity Theory maybe one of
>> the appropriate tools to explain that which
>> concerns Lindsay; how Critical theory is finding
>> its way of infiltrating critical spaces in
>> communities, including academia, which he sees as
>> nothing but “Grievance Studies” and threatening
>> scientific thinking.
>>
>> It has been good partaking in these
>> conversations. I think reflections can continue
>> to happen in private at a personal level and in
>> smaller groups. What is important is; yes need to
>> reflect on our thinking and our learning. I
>> myself have learned a lot from this thread, in
>> conscious and unconscious ways I transform as I
>> read your contributions, to the point I at times
>> pleasantly surprise myself quoting what was said
>> in this thread.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> S’ma
>>
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> *On
>> Behalf Of *Annalisa Aguilar
>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 22:37
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>> Hello S'ma and venerable others,
>>
>> I was intrigued by this notion of Critical Theory
>> being posed as a "grievance science," as if
>> taking on a maudlin cape of "victim mentality"
>> around the shoulders, etc.
>>
>> It seems something of a cop-out to reduce it to
>> that. It is almost as grievous as Holocaust deniers.
>>
>> Still, to consider it analytically, Critical
>> Theory by design is intended to uncover the
>> ideologies by which certain social sciences have
>> been taught and promulgated. It's
>> de-constructive, right? This stance might be seen
>> as nihilistic, but there has been some valuable
>> work from stripping off the veneer of power
>> structures in order to analyze its underlying
>> logic, which in many cases has been arbitrary and
>> reveals that privilege is usually not earned
>> through merit.
>>
>> When considering relations of power, it's easy
>> (albeit insensitive) for someone of privilege to
>> name the powerless as "victims," but when this is
>> done, it is only in an objection when victims
>> call themselves victims, as if they have no right
>> to do so.
>>
>> So who has the right to use this word "victim"?
>>
>> I feel there is a strange aura about the word
>> that is likened to the word "masochistic" and
>> it's *that baggage* I am wrangling with in my
>> post here.
>>
>> Must there be prejudice cast upon those who are
>> actual and legitimate victims. There seems
>> intertwined in the meaning of the word something
>> unquantifiable but that does result in "blaming
>> the victim" dynamics, and even more insidious,
>> gaslighting, and these have results of its own
>> harmful effects. (Like when we say "to add insult
>> to injury").
>>
>> Can no one use the word "victim" anymore?
>>
>> Frequently people use the word "survivor," which
>> does have connotations of resilience and
>> fortitude against odds (of being victimized). But
>> when we consider the word "survivor" when used as
>> the name of a reality game show (in the early
>> naughts). where people choose to put themselves
>> in difficult circumstances on deserted islands to
>> overcome these circumstances by their wits, to
>> then be "voted off the island" by the other
>> "survivors." Talk about social Darwinism!
>>
>> I feel there is still something the word
>> "survivor" leaves unspoken about the
>> representation of a person who has been a target
>> of prejudice, crime, neglect, or abuse, whether
>> intentionally or not.
>>
>> Curious, I looked up the definitions of "victim"
>> and found these:
>>
>> 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or
>> injurious action or agency: a victim of an
>> automobile accident.
>> 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by
>> his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the
>> dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal
>> agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the
>> victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical
>> illusion.
>> 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as
>> sacrificed: war victims.
>> 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites.
>>
>> When I look up synonyms for "victim" I find this:
>>
>> casualty, fatality, martyr, sufferer, butt,
>> clown, dupe, fool, gambit, gopher, gudgeon, gull,
>> hireling, immolation, innocent, mark, patsy,
>> pawn, pigeon, prey, pushover, quarry, sacrifice,
>> scapegoat, stooge, sucker, underdog, wretch, babe
>> in woods, easy make, easy mark, hunted, injured
>> party, sitting duck, sitting target, soft touch.
>>
>> I did the same for the term survivor:
>>
>> 1. a person or thing that survives.
>> 2. Law. the one of two or more designated
>> persons, as joint tenants or others having a
>> joint interest, who outlives the other or others.
>> 3. a person who continues to function or prosper
>> in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks.
>>
>> Synoymns:
>>
>> balance, debris, leftovers, legacy, oddments,
>> remainder, remnant, remnants, residue, rest,
>> scraps, surplus, trash, odds and ends, orts
>>
>> The third definition seems the lest frequent
>> usage, or is it the most recent accepted meaning?
>>
>> It is odd to consider victims as designated
>> parties of sacrifice; and survivors to be
>> considered mere leftovers.
>>
>> Is it that the life energy of victims are like
>> easily accessible batteries to be utilized for
>> the benefit of those not sacrificed? Isn't that
>> what criminals do? To appropriate the property or
>> energy of others for their own unearned benefit
>> and advancement?
>>
>> Is that fitness or crime?
>>
>> t the same time to be a survivor seems to be
>> something left less whole.
>>
>> What then would one call an individual or group
>> who has been overpowered against their
>> self-agency by another individual or group? Is
>> there a word without these undertowing currents
>> of meaning?
>>
>> We can say oppressed, but no one likes to say "I
>> have been oppressed." or "I am oppressed," just
>> as no one likes to say "I have been victimized,"
>> "I am a victim," or "My society is victimized by
>> your society," or "My ancestors were enslaved by
>> yours."
>>
>> And yet, these would be factual pronouncements,
>> were legitimate individuals (victims) of those
>> actual experiences to describe themselves in this
>> fashion.
>>
>> Would it be no different than an individual
>> saying, "I have been an oppressor." or "I
>> oppress." No one likes to say "I victimize
>> others," "I am a perpetrator," or "My society
>> victimizes your society," or "My ancestors
>> enslaved yours."
>>
>> The problem in making these sorts of statements
>> is that while factual and descriptive, they can
>> actually be twisted into being prescriptive. As
>> if to say, "I did this and I can do it again
>> because that's who I am." or "This happened to me
>> and it can happen again because that's who I am."
>>
>> While there are people such as this Lindsay (I
>> did not watch the video), who can throw about
>> "victimization" as if it were a shameful badge to
>> wear, I don't see anyone of that camp using the
>> same disdain to describe those who performed
>> grave injustices against others, to perhaps utter
>> a phrase like "perpetrator of injustices", that
>> might invoke that same shadow of shame. To my
>> estimation, whatever the words, it would be right
>> and just they should provide that shadow of
>> shame, given the injustices that Critical Theory
>> is attempting to understand, without further
>> empowering perpetrators and without further
>> disempowering victims.
>>
>> Is the reason for this blindspot or lapse because
>> a crime performed in past cannot be adjusted to
>> correct for the crime, that it somehow means
>> justice cannot be performed? In a sort of
>> "shrugged shoulders - c'est la vie" kind of
>> attitude? That no one believes exhuming the "dead
>> bodies" from "unmarked graves" worth the
>> unpleasantness of the task?
>>
>> Why is it easy to commit the crime, but so hard
>> to bend the arc of justice to meet the crime?
>>
>> In the days of the American Wild West, justice
>> was doled out too quickly, but now it seems it is
>> too slowly.
>>
>> This is why I wonder how to consider science when
>> we are talking about power structures. What is
>> scientific about justice/injustice? Power seems
>> unscientific. It is arbitrary. Or is it?
>>
>> Were we to describe the cause and effect of such
>> power structures and their internal reasoning, it
>> would start to sound like Nazi propaganda, or the
>> promotion of eugenics.
>>
>> I'm reminded of a Bill Moyers interview I saw
>> many years ago, the name of the guest I don't
>> remember. I only recall he was a politico for the
>> George W Bush campaign, and the fellow claimed
>> his favorite book was Orwell's 1984, as if to say
>> that it was an instruction booklet on how to
>> create the kind of society he wanted. The blatant
>> honesty was breathtaking.
>>
>> Reading S'ma's post made me aware of how in the
>> case of (all forms of) oppression it's rare for
>> the oppressor to say, "I have some
>> self-reflection to do to answer for the deeds of
>> my ancestors, to make up for the injustices
>> suffered by your ancestors," or "My sense of
>> privilege allowed me to oppress you, and I don't
>> feel right about that, so I will stop that now. I
>> see the errors of my ways."
>>
>> It feels there is no obligation for
>> reconciliation because such folk percieve the
>> cement of history has been poured and dried.
>> "It's in the past, let's move on."
>>
>> There is something absurd about the tacit
>> agreement to avoid self-naming, and I'm trying to
>> sort out how it might be not to be so absurd
>> sounding.
>>
>> Has anyone a hand up to provide me on this
>> reflection?
>>
>> I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well, but
>> that is my best attempt. Forgive any flaws in my
>> reasoning, and of course the typos there above.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Annalisa
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
>> behalf of Simangele Mayisela
>> <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>> <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:04 AM
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>> * [EXTERNAL]*
>>
>> Hi Andy and Alfredo
>>
>> Thank you for responding to my communication, and
>> for viewing the video I referred to in my
>> previous email. Let me say that the connection
>> between the current conversation about
>> “scientific” knowledge (in this case in relation
>> to “levels” of mental development and
>> “ideology”) and James Lindsay’s argument on
>> Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in
>> the video) is this:
>>
>> Lindsayand his colleagues believe that Critical
>> Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical
>> Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory,
>> Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific
>> base but are a movement which they call
>> “Grievance studies”, that perpetuates
>> “self-pity” and “victim mentality”. They further
>> went on to produce fake scientific study “dog
>> rape culture and feminism” known as “hoax
>> science” as evidence of how unscientific
>> “grievance studies” are; most of which are of
>> course are situated in the social sciences. This
>> further exposed the paucity in the system of peer
>> reviews in scientific journals, which some
>> believe are also tainted by ideological
>> predispositions – my fear is that this introduces
>> mistrust in the notion of review processes of
>> scientific journals - which we have to be
>> concerned about.
>>
>> The reason I brought up Lindsay’s argument to the
>> picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly
>> agree with Lindsay’s argument on Critical
>> Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact
>> that they confirm the influence of ideological
>> position an individual or rather a “scientist”
>> holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in
>> this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to
>> be objective in our pursuit of scientific
>> enquiry, the narratives associated with our
>> scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted
>> with ideologically biases or historicity. The
>> likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our
>> attention the dangers of the exclusion of the
>> masses in the name of “scientific evidence” – who
>> in this day of rapid technological connection the
>> collective is gradually become global rather than
>> in specific localities. Even those that deemed to
>> have “primitive mental functioning” or
>> “unsophisticated” mental functioning, their
>> unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and
>> other spaces with Critical Theory like a “Trojan
>> Horse”, that’s according to Bret Weinstein (
>> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2F*2Fpo.nl*2F2020*2F06*2F20*2Fmust-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse*2F__*3B!!Mih3wA!QCD7ed0aCRAAlp7GdBrl0meYtbgs9bxM8e7Zg-RtwtTHcq2MHVUupotmjSed87zhqcRqSA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126480974&sdata=OgkwRQ102d*2BW*2FUntR5jqwUD44OozPBxwZ495zg7NrtI*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5As5j44Bw$>
>> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if
>> Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific
>> evidence of “self-pity”, “victim mentality”,
>> unsophisticated mental functioning, … (we can add
>> other classifying adjectives to describe all
>> those who have not developed “scientific tools”).
>>
>> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related
>> to some of the sources that I have encountered
>> earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I
>> referred you to, but it is within this line of
>> debates about “scientific” knowledge”.
>>
>> It seems to me that the association of Paulo
>> Freire’s “Education for the Oppressed” to
>> "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps
>> mistook for “Education for the Depressed”, which
>> is unfortunate, especially if we take into
>> consideration all the publications by Freire,
>> like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the
>> Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education
>> is evidence of the collectively formulated
>> knowledge that is generously shared, rendering
>> the commodified "scientific" knowledge
>> accessible to the privileged few, generously
>> shared to all who needs to advance the survival
>> of humanity.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Simangele
>>
>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>> <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>
>>
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> *On
>> Behalf Of *Andy Blunden
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37
>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>> Casting collective efforts at self-determination
>> as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long
>> been a line of right-wing criticism of
>> progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo
>> Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin
>> though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like
>> Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping
>> people from being victims to self-determination.
>> There is such a thing as a politics of pity
>> though; it is called philanthropy and charity.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRESHVrtCaw*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420282275*26sdata*3DoX74*2BlINhl3MWMlwht3oCw5PTrjXyxOQX17*2BfVvxpf8*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LW-P86LBA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126480974&sdata=IkuUm91U9GMwiGxaDJXhs8w5QnwrCsBLNDtBPb0z6pA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqKiolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5BzBwex0g$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCREQ2rLbDLg*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420282275*26sdata*3D97yLyLrH0AJ5QXEU2RAXGWLVxXa6i54MPGgfam6vXFI*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LU90iyCdw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126490969&sdata=NqHc8uV*2BR9b3*2BpgP4CeIG*2F8x8fTkOajO08luWCkeAzo*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiUlKioqKioqKiolJSolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5Ck5wUnZA$>
>>
>>
>> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>>
>> thanks S’ma; among the many philosophy of
>> science scholars who discuss what rigorous
>> scientific and scholarship are or can be,
>> your choice—a video critiquing critical
>> theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as
>> “grievance studies”–is indeed surprising and
>> remarkable in the context of this conversation!
>>
>> In the video, which did not so much touch my
>> small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as
>> to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay
>> mentions Paolo Freire’s Pedagogy of the
>> Oppressed as an example of “critical social
>> justice” books, which he defines as “a
>> codified way to indulge people into self
>> pity…”(min. 47:50). He complains that
>> teachers are being educated with Freire’s
>> book, and that students are being taught with
>> this critical (or, as Lindsay’s says, this
>> self-pity) attitude. Without going into
>> whether Lindsay’s critique holds or has any
>> touch with what critical theory scholars
>> argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from
>> Lindsay’s position, an example of a good book
>> for teachers, and why would that one be it?
>>
>> Alfredo
>>
>> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on
>> behalf of Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net>
>> <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>
>> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture,
>> Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54
>> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>>
>> Hi Simangele,
>>
>> How are you evaluating “level of mental
>> functioning”? I would say that is something
>> with which psychology has had some difficulty.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> /"I may say that whenever I meet
>> Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss
>> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber,
>> I become at once aware that my partner does
>> not understand anything in the matter, and I
>> end usually with the feeling that this also
>> applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)/
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele
>> Mayisela <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za
>> <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Further, I still have more questions,
>> however it does appear to me that at the
>> heart of the “hypothesis” of the
>> scientific question are the “levels” of
>> mental development which are associated
>> to “skin colour”, with little
>> consideration of the historical
>> oppression that created the “backwards”
>> economies that keep the third of the
>> global population is what appears to be
>> of low level of mental functioning. The
>> question is more about “what is the
>> quality of the contents of what is
>> embodies by the black skin or a white
>> skin?” with the aim to find evidence for
>> the difference.
>>
>> Just to share, lately have been viewing
>> James Lindsay argument on what is
>> “scientific”, “rigorous scientific” and
>> “scholarship” vs popular narratives that
>> are a propaganda based on Critical
>> Theory, which are taking over academy.
>> Here is one his videos that you may want
>> to view – if you are Marxist at heart be
>> warned that you may be challenged by
>> Lindsay’s argument on ideologies.
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGgdOxR0ZQ$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.youtube.com*2Fwatch*3Fv*3D8N55gFjg4yg__*3B!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYNmswIv-Q*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C3980c805ddde48ffcda308d81ce02bb5*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291096420292271*26sdata*3DtYB881hofx2qlKcYHVaGFLwJWbzpFnRD8oRsTDV1y3U*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!XgF09Z_7Jf5M7eawhdePrcY6Ga6UVHH-Wen9Vq7UBXWfzeFgYdOg20ED5HIi0LWZEZpvXQ*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C793f465e2c064597a6ec08d81d52307d*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637291586126490969&sdata=QtplwvBnPbeO8pEDjpsqP1r5VP8rKbh4hV6gmpYUbDE*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!WBb97M0rnCTuW6rx_rhYvkAPQLCK1TlHV1j2_71whs8hUwhp1NiF5m7opU1Tv5Aaswj01g$>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> S’ma
>>
>> *From:* Simangele Mayisela
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on
>> a question.
>>
>> Dear Alfredo
>>
>> Thank you for taking my attention of
>> “level” which is crucial to rendering the
>> question “scientific”. But couple with
>> level, which could be quantifies as
>> “high” and “low” or “superior” or
>> “inferior” would account for
>> “difference”. As much as the question to
>> be asked should be about the “ideological
>> basis” , I think the “hypothesis” is
>> likely to be linked to the “ideolody” as
>> the hypothesis serves as springboard from
>> which the scientist works from, which
>> informs where the person will land in
>> terms of the ideas.
>>
>> Nevertheless thank you for the
>> clarification. I see what you mean ?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> S’ma
>>
> --
>
>
> Crush human humanity out of shape once more, under
> similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same
> tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious license
> and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the
> same fruit, according to its kind. C.Dickens.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VrJ6ogmE0QXMa3fMTmRp6YRhgzkXCIbZ0jSEci2-B6Gvtituftx_3TXEEt7HTGhnZ1uh5g$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Q_q_DNhDoq1Xzty8Vz0Wuuux1nL8ULgJJJ2-vL13YzNjFRpGelADB-JXAxMUbAotW_H_mw$>
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> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!Q_q_DNhDoq1Xzty8Vz0Wuuux1nL8ULgJJJ2-vL13YzNjFRpGelADB-JXAxMUbAoOrejabA$>
> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu
> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>.
> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
> <http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu>.
>
>
>
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